Steve Lukather delay use | The Final Mystery?

[VegaBaby]

The compressor was in series after preamp. Before the chorus unit, since the DBX 160A was mono in/out.

Do you have any settings that nail the DBX post amp compression thing by any chance ?

 

[guitarnerdswe]

The compressor was in series after preamp. Before the chorus unit, since the DBX 160A was mono in/out.

Do you have any settings that nail the DBX post amp compression thing by any chance ?

Well, all it really did in both Lukes old rig and in Landaus current studio rack, is limit the extreme peaks a bit. It isn't really used for that super-squashed clean thing that most people think it do. For that, they used a compressor (Landaus is fond of one of those blue Boss ones, I think it's the CS2).

Landau has his threshold at around -3db, and the ratio at 4:1. Luke also had his set to -3db, both had the ratio at somewhere around 6:1 to 8:1. I'm pretty sure the "overeasy" function was always on (in other words, the soft knee function of the unit). I'm not sure giving you the threshold value will help you very much, since that is dependent on how hard it the input of the compressor was hit by the signal of the preamp (in Lukes case), or how much signal it was given by his rackmount micpre in Landaus case (all of his effects are post amp totally, being fed by the mic and preamp that's infront of the speaker). However, the high threshold means that the compressor was used for more of limiting of the very highest peaks, more than for a supersquashed type of sound. I have ton of bootlegs of Luke but also some Landau, and it also sounds like that's what it does.

Since the DBX 160A is program dependant (in other words, it changes the attack and release rates according to what you put in it), it can be a bit tricky to nail. I would set the attack rate at around 9.96, and the release at around 9.80. That seems to correspond pretty well with what the 160As manual states regarding the attack and release rates. Both the attack and release are fast on this unit, so just keep it above 9.7 and you should be close.

 

[VegaBaby]

The compressor was in series after preamp. Before the chorus unit, since the DBX 160A was mono in/out.

Do you have any settings that nail the DBX post amp compression thing by any chance ?

Well, all it really did in both Lukes old rig and in Landaus current studio rack, is limit the extreme peaks a bit. It isn't really used for that super-squashed clean thing that most people think it do. For that, they used a compressor (Landaus is fond of one of those blue Boss ones, I think it's the CS2).

Landau has his threshold at around -3db, and the ratio at 4:1. Luke also had his set to -3db, both had the ratio at somewhere around 6:1 to 8:1. I'm pretty sure the "overeasy" function was always on (in other words, the soft knee function of the unit). I'm not sure giving you the threshold value will help you very much, since that is dependent on how hard it the input of the compressor was hit by the signal of the preamp (in Lukes case), or how much signal it was given by his rackmount micpre in Landaus case (all of his effects are post amp totally, being fed by the mic and preamp that's infront of the speaker). However, the high threshold means that the compressor was used for more of limiting of the very highest peaks, more than for a supersquashed type of sound. I have ton of bootlegs of Luke but also some Landau, and it also sounds like that's what it does.

Since the DBX 160A is program dependant (in other words, it changes the attack and release rates according to what you put in it), it can be a bit tricky to nail. I would set the attack rate at around 9.96, and the release at around 9.80. That seems to correspond pretty well with what the 160As manual states regarding the attack and release rates. Both the attack and release are fast on this unit, so just keep it above 9.7 and you should be close.

Thanks for that !
Makes sense that they used it only for limiting. have you tried the 'Auto' function in the Axe comp ? Maybe Cliff took some inspiration from the DBX...

 

[vAmp]

Does the Wah go in front?
I've added the Hotlicks flanger
What else can we add to really cook the CPU...? :mrgreen: Maybe a few Filter blocks as boosts.

Would the compressor be used more as a safety measure, or to let the limiting affect the sound in a good way? (eg when striking a clean chord hard!).
I'm still longing for a certain compressor setting of the GSP-2101 (ratio wasn't that high at all if I remember well), which could easily make single bass notes hugely pop/slap (didn't have to pull them very hard) in a musical way as well as sound skank notes really punchy, and would also sound awesome when striking a chord hard, so that's why it makes me think of that...

Do you think the clean sound in Georgy Porgy (Paris) and heard throughout his work is unaffected by a compressor, or is the limiting (or power amp compression) making that sound?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEnRAeHtogk

Is it possible for the 3 lines on the right to feed in the Send and have them come out left under into the mixer? Or does it only transport 2 lines? (I might find out eventually )
It all sounds great in my head, but I still have to hear it :lol:

 

[Scott Peterson]

I'm not shooting for these tones; but the effort and what you guys have uncovered and done has been an education unto itself. Thanks for sharing the pursuit!

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Thanks for that !
Makes sense that they used it only for limiting. have you tried the 'Auto' function in the Axe comp ? Maybe Cliff took some inspiration from the DBX...

The newest compressor in the Axe is actually based of a DBX, so that's a definite yes

Does the Wah go in front?
I've added the Hotlicks flanger
What else can we add to really cook the CPU...? :mrgreen: Maybe a few Filter blocks as boosts.

Would the compressor be used more as a safety measure, or to let the limiting affect the sound in a good way? (eg when striking a clean chord hard!).
I'm still longing for a certain compressor setting of the GSP-2101 (ratio wasn't that high at all if I remember well), which could easily make single bass notes hugely pop/slap (didn't have to pull them very hard) in a musical way as well as sound skank notes really punchy, and would also sound awesome when striking a chord hard, so that's why it makes me think of that...

Do you think the clean sound in Georgy Porgy (Paris) and heard throughout his work is unaffected by a compressor, or is the limiting (or power amp compression) making that sound?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEnRAeHtogk

Is it possible for the 3 lines on the right to feed in the Send and have them come out left under into the mixer? Or does it only transport 2 lines? (I might find out eventually )
It all sounds great in my head, but I still have to hear it :lol:

Yes, the goes out in front. The modulation from the Hotlicks video is actually a Tri-Stereo chorus (although a Dytronics instead of the Dyno-My Piano version Landau used). The Dytronics has a shorter minimum delay time, which makes it a bit more "flangey" in it's tone.

The clean tone from that concert is definitely limited by the DBX. There isn't any compression from the power amp, since it's a solid state HH V800 one.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about the 3 lines? Why do you use a mixer in patch?

 

[vAmp]

I need a :worship: smiley for all your info

Would you say the compressor is on purpose limiting almost every striking of a chord, to actually "make" the sound that way, or would you say it is just intervening like 20% of the time? I was thinking the first.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about the 3 lines? Why do you use a mixer in patch?

Don't I need the mixer 2? It *is* easiest to mix when trying out, isn't it? (esp. since the FX are on Mix 100%. But I know they don't *have* to be, so it's always a solution to dump the mixer(s), I guess).

But what I was wondering is what to do if I'd want one more FX space in between. If I could put Mixer 2 on the bottom line, that would be solved. Anyway, it's just mostly cool to start out with. I'm not gonna cook the CPU for sounds that only use 1/3 of the devices

Do you know for sure in which spot the vibe was used? Both in front or after the amp seems to have its proponents, like everything. I'm mostly thinking "Never Walk Alone." Will use ears too.

 

[VegaBaby]

Does the Wah go in front?
I've added the Hotlicks flanger
What else can we add to really cook the CPU...? :mrgreen: Maybe a few Filter blocks as boosts.

Would the compressor be used more as a safety measure, or to let the limiting affect the sound in a good way? (eg when striking a clean chord hard!).
I'm still longing for a certain compressor setting of the GSP-2101 (ratio wasn't that high at all if I remember well), which could easily make single bass notes hugely pop/slap (didn't have to pull them very hard) in a musical way as well as sound skank notes really punchy, and would also sound awesome when striking a chord hard, so that's why it makes me think of that...

Wah goes in front. And yes, like Tonygtr said, the Flanger is actually the Dytronics Tri, which sounds quite different to the other two versions, but sounds awesome as well.

Regarding the compressor, I think it's very difficult to say how much of it is on purpose or not. Having it post amp it really varies depending on the amp volume. Maybe the original purpose was not to overload the input of the rack, especially in Landau's case. Strange setup he used... Amp/cab, mic'ed with a 57 (and mic pre) and from there he went mono into the rack. So it's like a studio recorded guitar with post mic'ed, send added effects. The first thing to hit in the rack was the compressor and then into the Tri. So again, the compression depends a little bit on how hot the mic pre's output was...

 

[VegaBaby]

What else can we add to really cook the CPU...? :mrgreen:

You could add a Tube Pre after the cab to simulate the mic pre (in Landau's case ). But usually IR's of course have that already (to some audible degree). Never tried the one Landau uses (I believe it was a Chandler IIRC), so I'm not sure how much it actually alters the tone. I guess the question here really is not what else we can add, but how much more geeky we can get :lol:

 

[guitarnerdswe]

I need a :worship: smiley for all your info

Would you say the compressor is on purpose limiting almost every striking of a chord, to actually "make" the sound that way, or would you say it is just intervening like 20% of the time? I was thinking the first.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about the 3 lines? Why do you use a mixer in patch?

Don't I need the mixer 2? It *is* easiest to mix when trying out, isn't it? (esp. since the FX are on Mix 100%. But I know they don't *have* to be, so it's always a solution to dump the mixer(s), I guess).

But what I was wondering is what to do if I'd want one more FX space in between. If I could put Mixer 2 on the bottom line, that would be solved. Anyway, it's just mostly cool to start out with. I'm not gonna cook the CPU for sounds that only use 1/3 of the devices

Do you know for sure in which spot the vibe was used? Both in front or after the amp seems to have its proponents, like everything. I'm mostly thinking "Never Walk Alone." Will use ears too.

Hi!

The compressor in Lukes older live rigs probably did more work than the one in Landaus studio rig, but I don't think any of them actually use/used it to "make" their sound, so to speak.

I would just use the output levels on the effects block to adjust the volume, that would free up some space.

The vibe was definitely out front, I've never heard of anyone putting a vibe anywhere other. I don't think most vibe pedals can even handla line-level signals.

 

[vAmp]

The vibe was definitely out front, I've never heard of anyone putting a vibe anywhere other. I don't think most vibe pedals can even handle line-level signals.

What about Jimi?
Well, I was going w this info:
Vibe Pedal Placement - Pre or Post Distortion/Overdrive?
http://www.effectrode.com/website/tubev ... cement.htm
Maybe I understood it wrongly...
Bottom line: you would move the vibe in my schematic?

Just out of interest:
In some (or all? I didn't think so, but I recently saw one) pics of Luke's W/D/W you can see SM57 for the dry cab and the others are off-axis?
If they are the same mics (I don't know), would that just mean the FX are mixed colder/w less lows?

 

[GaryRichie]

That schematic (as I understand it) is showing the vibe post gain PEDAL, not post amp, as in an effects loop. Did amps even have effects loops back in Jimi's day? LOL. I'm afraid that because of my age, when Jimi was out I was listening to The Monkees instead of Jimi.

 

[charles5150]

[attachment=0:27jw9qno]PorgyParis.syx[/attachment:27jw9qno]Guys, this is the mother of all topics, I've readed it zillion times.

Just my two cents, here is the patch I'm using for the Georgy Porgy Paris version.

Not Trichorus, it's a regular chorus into compresor into Brownface and 4x12 California, followed by the usual Circular Delays settings.

To me it does the work, has that "shouty" clean with a little hair tone. For sure you guys can improve it, maybe adding the correct amount of Trichorus and compresor...

 

[charles5150]

[attachment=0:1t1o1kay]NeverWalkAlone.syx[/attachment:1t1o1kay]..... another 2 cents, for the Never Walk Alone Vibe, to me this set up of phaser and flanger in series does the trick. Never got to make it work post-amp, it's too much, works better pre-amp, so now and then some of the flusshhh of the effects are overdriven and that's the beauty....

 

[vAmp]

Thanks. Will try them tomorrow

IMO, the Georgy Porgy clean sound is more a detuner sound. The wetter the mix, the more it has that typical sound. It's the sound I've wondered forever about when I was young I wonder if there's even delay on that at all sometimes. Might be safer to use "dry" (the detuning delays give it some space) or with a bit of reverb, just in case the level of the delay is set too high.

I also think some presets in the Axe have an already nice Vibe (phaser module) sound for Never Walk Alone, just needing a mix or rate change. I might name them later. Going through all presets again in detail these days. One might be the Vibe out of Bank C 110, but there are more. There's even a preset that's more or less in the ballpark as is in Bank A, I believe.

 

[luke75]

Hi,
Thank you guys for the efforts and the explanations!
It's a very interesting topic!

 

[guitarnerdswe]

vAmp, As somebody said, post overdrive/distortion pedal and post preamp/amp are two very different things. The fuzz and the octavia Jimi used didn't produce much overdrive in themselfs, but where just more for the flavour than the gain. The classic setting for an octavia is the gain/distortion on 0, and the level all the way up, and a Fuzz Face has very little gain in itself, even if you crank it. Anyway, yes, the vibe should be infront of the amp input.

You are right about the actual vibe sound (somebody else said he used a phaser and flanger together). The vibe in the Axe will do a very good version of the classic Univibe sound. Luke did use the rackmount Black Cat on Never walk alone. I usually turn up the feedback some to copy that particular unit, the Black Cat is a bit more "greasy" than other vibes (a bit more pronounced), and a bit of feedback seems to do the trick.

His clean tones on Georgy Porgy in Paris 1990 are TC1210 chorus and the Eventide H3000S doing pitch together. He pretty much always had chorus and pitch on at the same time on clean tunes, and rarely chorus on lead tones during that era. How would kick in the chorus sometimes for extra grease, like the solo on Little Wing from the same concert. You can clearly hear him engage the chorus at beginning of the solo on that tune. During the 80s however, his dirty tones where more wet so to speak, so did often use chorus too on his dirty tones together with detune up until around 89, after that it was pretty much only detune on the distorted stuff.

I can't remember ever seeing his wet cabs being miced any differently than his dry cab. A good thing to know, is that his wet cabs aren't all effects signal, there is dry in them too, but the middle one is just dry. So, basically, his W/D/W is actually a stereo rig with a dry cab added in the middle. Also, his 1990 rig wasn't a 3 cab one, it was just straight up stereo with 2 Marshall 4x12 with V30s.

 

[vAmp]

Many current sounds w just guitar in front of amps can be heard here:
VIP experience Frankfurt
mainly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD09zz3BFuo from 1:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaPhxvNZi5E from 4:00

His clean tones on Georgy Porgy in Paris 1990 are TC1210 chorus and the Eventide H3000S doing pitch together.

Thx. I figured so much, but if I had to choose one of the two, I feel the detuner defines that sound the best for what I like about it.

I can't remember ever seeing his wet cabs being miced any differently than his dry cab.

I was pretty sure that I saw at least a small mic for the dry somewhere and the larger black ones for the wets. Seems like it's the current setup in the new vids. The off-axis thing, there I may have gotten fooled by some shadows maybe, or possibly it can depend on the venue. No biggie, maye it was always so.

I was just wondering if this could have been the reason for his somewhat new and better sound. On the new CD and sometimes in the new live vids his sound (I think mainly his humbucker) seems to have some more mids and using "Radley's PEQ trick"
I wonder if that would only be coming from the slightly changed pickups he has now?

A good thing to know, is that his wet cabs aren't all effects signal, there is dry in them too

That I forgot or didn't expect, though I know some do that. Why not leave the dry out, you think?

I must say that going back to hear some of his sounds, they often have lost the "wow" factor of my early awe and I'm thinking "oops, was it that "bad"? It must be the Axe spoiling us rotten (and me knowing too little about real amps/cabs to make a good comparison...) Some still exist though and it will be a while before I got some of it dialed in. Waiting for the neighbors to go to work :mrgreen:

 

[guitarnerdswe]

I agree about the detuner Lukes wet sound when it was at it's best was always more detune than chorus.

The only pictures I've seen with that differ from the norm, is when Bradshow recorded a couple of shows. Then they used multiple mics on the middle cab, one for FOH, and one for the recording unit. EDIT: I just watch some of the clips on youtube, and on that VIP thingy, he did have a SM57 for the middle one, and some condenser mics for the outside cabs. He did the same thing on a gig in London. My guess is that he wants a smoother sound for the effects.

Well, I think it's hard to tell what is the pickups, the new body and wood construction of the BFR Luke compared to the all alder ones, and what is the amps. I think it's more about the amps, compared to the other 2.

The reason for using dry in the outside cabs as well, is to get a bigger sound onstage. True, you loose some separation between dry and effects, but your dry sound is so much bigger and wider with 3 cabs. Also, his outside cabs are driven by a different model poweramp, with different tubes, so the dry tone is not exactly the same in all cabs.

 

[vAmp]

Adding this: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-preset-exchange/46124-lukather-1990-live-paris-tone.html
Sorry for the bump...