Steve Lukather delay use | The Final Mystery?

[vAmp]

Everything I stated is correct, if anyone says anything else, I know for a fact that they are wrong

LOL :mrgreen:
TYVM again, tonygtr

Do you also know the importance of the detuning parameters for the most cheesiest of 80ies (chorused) lead tones?
I mean, which values would you program on the Axe and was the detuner in series with the Tri-Chorus or in parallel?
Again, I believe I've seen info and presets both ways.
I always used to think the detuning was one of the "magic" factors to get that "edge", but maybe it's no more than a thickener. In my DigiTech GSP-2101 days, I used to have a preset that seemed to come close for me, and I thought it was because of the detuning parameters. However, the same parameters (which I lost) didn't work like that in the G-Force, so maybe it was something else, or detuning sounds different on different units...

For first timers, also listen to joCCes sounds/presets:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6123
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5279
There may be much more, but I'm only starting to dig in the older presets.

BTW: here's the thread with the flanger settings from Stef Herbuel:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5727

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Also you mentioned to get the diffusion in the Axe as close as possible to the PCM 70, set the diffusion time to 100, and the diffusion ( ? ) to around 15% ....

What is the 2nd parameter ? I only found the diffusion time ?

Thanks !

The second parameter, Diffusion, is just called that, Diffusion. It sets the amount of Diffusion in % and should be right next to Diffusion Time.

I also only found 1 diffusion parameter (in %). There is certainly no other Diffusion parameter next to it (at least in the multi delay block anyway)
But then my unit is a standard, and perhaps it exists in the Ultra :?:

Either way, I am splitting hairs now, as the sound I am getting is pretty damn good.

Big thanks to Tonygtr for clearing up the parallel issue. I have now placed my delay blocks parallel to each other as well as to the main signal, and that smooths things out a lot. A lot less messy than before anyway.

In the multidelays in the Ultra, you have 2 parameters for diffusion. The circular delays cannot be done on a Standard, as it doesn't support multitap delays.

 

[craiguitar]

The standard can do multi-tap delays. I've been using the 'Plex Delay' algorithm within the Multi-Delay block, and its been doing the job OK for Circular delays. [waits to be flamed.. ] What it can't do it the multi-tap in series thing. This might be what you are referring to :?:

 

[R.D.]

In the multidelays in the Ultra, you have 2 parameters for diffusion.

Where is the 2nd diffusion parameter ? I only find one ?

 

[VegaBaby]

In the multidelays in the Ultra, you have 2 parameters for diffusion.

Where is the 2nd diffusion parameter ? I only find one ?

Only the QuadTap has both, right next to each other on page2.

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Everything I stated is correct, if anyone says anything else, I know for a fact that they are wrong

LOL :mrgreen:
TYVM again, tonygtr

Do you also know the importance of the detuning parameters for the most cheesiest of 80ies (chorused) lead tones?
I mean, which values would you program on the Axe and was the detuner in series with the Tri-Chorus or in parallel?
Again, I believe I've seen info and presets both ways.
I always used to think the detuning was one of the "magic" factors to get that "edge", but maybe it's no more than a thickener. In my DigiTech GSP-2101 days, I used to have a preset that seemed to come close for me, and I thought it was because of the detuning parameters. However, the same parameters (which I lost) didn't work like that in the G-Force, so maybe it was something else, or detuning sounds different on different units...

For first timers, also listen to joCCes sounds/presets:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6123
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5279
There may be much more, but I'm only starting to dig in the older presets.

BTW: here's the thread with the flanger settings from Stef Herbuel:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5727

Sorry about that last line that you qouted. I know it sounds a bit arrogant, but I've read so many things about his use of delays that just isn't true :mrgreen:

Luke used detuning quite alot for his "cheesy" tones. He will give a quick rundown of what used in different periods:

84-86: Dytronics Tri-Stereo Chorus (no detune for the most part, although he had an really early 70s Eventide H-series Clock Works in his rack that he used some times).
86-87: Dytronics Tri-Stereo Chorus, and also an newer grey Eventide in his rack, but it rarely got used.
87: TC 2290 and Yamaha SPX90 replace the Dytronics and Eventide. Detune use got more prominent ( I think, hard to tell from bootlegs from this time ).
88: TC 1210 replace the 2290 for chorus, Yamaha SPX90 for detune.
89: TC 2290 went back into the rig, still Yamaha SPX90 for detune
90-97: TC 1210 (again!) for chorus, Eventide H3000S for detune.
98-08. TC G-Force for both chorus and detune.
08-current: TC M-One for detune, custom racked Boss unit for chorus. Never used together anymore though. Detune used as a widener, chorus more for fast and slow leslie type sounds.

There is also alot of missinformation about how he used his detune together with his chorus. I've heard it all :mrgreen: Anyways, he first ran the signal into the chorus unit, then ran his chorus to the mixer (Mix 1), and used a tap of the LEFT SIDE of the chorused signal into his detune, and then into Mix 2, then out to his poweramps. All credible informition ( schematics directly from Bob Bradshaw ) show that Bradshaw wired up pretty much all his rigs like this when it came to chorus and detune.

If you want the Tri-Stereo chorus era of Luke, then there is a nice preset of a guy called Enzo why copied his Tri-Stereo unit into the quadchorus of the Axe. The preset is up on Axechange ( use the new editor to find it ). If you want the era of around 88 and forward, use a simple stereo chorus set for a slow and wide sound, and with the detune set at +9/0ms -9/25ms. Those are the standard detune settings from the Eventide he used around 90 (those are also the exact same settings EVH used ). You can also try Landaus detune settings, +13/4ms -11/9ms for a more prominent effect. Use the chorus in parallel to your dry tone, then run one line of the output back to your dry signal, and one to a vol block. Use the vol block to only use the left side of the signal, then send it to a pitch block, and then send the pitch block back to the dry signal.

 

[Enzo Sutera]

If you want the Tri-Stereo chorus era of Luke, then there is a nice preset of a guy called Enzo why copied his Tri-Stereo unit into the quadchorus of the Axe. The preset is up on Axechange ( use the new editor to find it ).

yes and you get a circular delay made with the "dual delay" block as well
no need to use the multitap one to achieve a circular delay.. not to mention the dual delay is true stereo and has spillover

 

[vAmp]

I am finally trying all suggestions and there might be more questions

1) For starters, tonygtr, you once PM'd me on the circular delays:

The one in the Axe-FX bank A is reaaaally close. If you change the diffusion to 100%, and the diffusion time to 13, is pretty much spot on.

but in this thread you've stated the opposite:

To get the diffusion in the Axe as close as possible to the PCM70, set the diffusion time to 100, and the diffusion to around 15%.

and

Everything I stated is correct

So I'm guessing the second? :mrgreen:

2) I've also seen that the Axe preset 079 has only one delay line using feedback. Doesn't the PCM70 use one feedback rate for *all* delay lines? IOW, isn't the preset wrong here?

3) About this info of yours:

Use the chorus in parallel to your dry tone, then run one line of the output back to your dry signal, and one to a vol block. Use the vol block to only use the left side of the signal, then send it to a pitch block, and then send the pitch block back to the dry signal.

a) Just to be sure (can't find the Bradshaw shematics atm), don't you need 2 Vol/Pan blocks here, to just join the chorus right channel with the dry, instead of both channels? (left goes into Pitch/Detune) Or are you 100% positive it's full stereo?

b) Was this dry channel in parallel only used for clean or lead maybe? Seeing Idw's info I found, there would be no dry (for Landau at least):

I also had the opportunity to try a real tri chorus and at first we hooked it up with a line mixer and had a dry signal pass trough as well. Didn't sound as it should though (so no dry signal, all wet). I also talked to Michael Landau about this and he said "No no no. No mixer no dry signal."

BTW, I'm in awe how great a lot of amps in v10.03 sound for the Luke sound now, and how much the delays are adding to the classic sound already.
I *did* manage to try the delays in parallel, but I still find it hard to believe it is the HUGE delay. Sounds more like it when I run the pan delay into the circular, even though I'm still guessing you're info should be correct. Have to fool around with that some more... Thanks again!

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Hi!

Yes, I screwed up one of those occasions when I was talking about the diffusion settings. The correct one should be diffusion on full, and the time somewhere around 15%.

The chorus that feeds the pitch is feed from the EXP out on the mixer. Like this:

http://www.customaudioelectronics.com/r ... iagram.pdf

Only the pitch sees only the left side of the chorus, the "dry" (non pitched part of the signal) sees both left and right, in stereo.

Regarding the Tri-Stereo, there is dry in the actual unit, so that information is not correct. How much dry, is hard to tell, but there is definitely dry in there. It's somewhere between 25% and 50% of the signal, I think it's closer to the first number than the second. A chorus with no dry makes no sence, and will not sound as lush as with some dry signal.

 

[vAmp]

Regarding the Tri-Stereo, there is dry in the actual unit, so that information is not correct. How much dry, is hard to tell, but there is definitely dry in there. It's somewhere between 25% and 50% of the signal, I think it's closer to the first number than the second. A chorus with no dry makes no sence, and will not sound as lush as with some dry signal.

Well, I'm assuming he meant that there is no extra dry line besides the Tri-Chorus unit itself. So you could both be correct.
I would think that's the same as using a less than 100% mix in the Axe-FX quad chorus and having no extra parallel dry path there either.

Did you have an answer for the feedback on all lines or just one in the circular delay?

I'll continue work with this info tomorrow and show results eventually. Thanks!!

 

[vAmp]

www.customaudioelectronics.com/resources/specs/MiniMixerblockdiagram.pdf

Wow, I had no idea that delay 1 was just fed by the Left from Mixer 1 and delay 2 just by the right. Guess it doesn't matter much as long as you don't use the chorus (and even then, never listened much to just one channel of a chorus).

For the full-on 80ies chorus/delay lead, is the chorus from Mixer 1 mixed in parallel w the delays, or does it only go through them?

The little bridging part next to the grounding symbol is weird...
Does it mean that all leads have grounding or are they summing the outputs of the chorus (making it mono; I guess not )?

 

[guitarnerdswe]

Regarding the Tri-Stereo, there is dry in the actual unit, so that information is not correct. How much dry, is hard to tell, but there is definitely dry in there. It's somewhere between 25% and 50% of the signal, I think it's closer to the first number than the second. A chorus with no dry makes no sence, and will not sound as lush as with some dry signal.

Well, I'm assuming he meant that there is no extra dry line besides the Tri-Chorus unit itself. So you could both be correct.
I would think that's the same as using a less than 100% mix in the Axe-FX quad chorus and having no extra parallel dry path there either.

Did you have an answer for the feedback on all lines or just one in the circular delay?

I'll continue work with this info tomorrow and show results eventually. Thanks!!

If that's what he meant, then it's correct, no extra dry besides what the Tri Stereo normally lets through. It's connected in series behind the preamp though.

The preset is correct in regards of the feedback. Just using the first feedback control for all lines works the same way as it works in the PCM70. Using the other feedback controls (2-4) will yield very different results.

When you use real mixers and rack gear, there isn't really any other way to do it (in regards to the splitting to feed different units), without it getting overly complexed, if you use regular switchers and mixers. Here are some good schematics over 80s rigs:

http://www.hugeracksinc.com/RacksOfTheRichAndFamous.pdf

Btw, the schematic in the CAE mini mixer manual is over a Landau rig, but since Bradshaw builds both Landaus and Lukes rack rigs, the basics and principles are the same. The bridging is because both the jacks share the same ground. The "dry chorus" goes through both the delays and the non-delay sound. Everything in the first part of the mixer (chorus, the reverb and multieffect), is mixed, before being sent to the second part of the mixer. In the second part of the mixer, the delays are mixed in in parallel to everything else.

Mind that the only unit that isn't 100% wet, is the chorus. Nothing else has dry in it.

 

[vAmp]

The preset is correct in regards of the feedback. Just using the first feedback control for all lines works the same way as it works in the PCM70. Using the other feedback controls (2-4) will yield very different results.

From the info, it seemed to me that you could not specify feedback per delay line on the PCM70 (feedback specified as "30"). It seems you're confirming this, but I don't get how the feedback of delay 1 is influencing the feedback of the others, as you seem to imply? That didn't seem the case in my earlier testing, if I remember well (actually, it happened a few times, but that was because of Axe-Edit bugginess).

When you use real mixers and rack gear, there isn't really any other way to do it (in regards to the splitting to feed different units), without it getting overly complexed

Yes, I see... So I guess they would not do it this way in the Axe-FX and hopefully it is not important and even better to take the stereo outs here. OTOH, I can imagine it *could* be different/special with a stereo chorus feeding both delays (and both ON).

The rest seems clear. Off to sleep & TYVM!

 

[guitarnerdswe]

The preset is correct in regards of the feedback. Just using the first feedback control for all lines works the same way as it works in the PCM70. Using the other feedback controls (2-4) will yield very different results.

From the info, it seemed to me that you could not specify feedback per delay line on the PCM70 (feedback specified as "30"). It seems you're confirming this, but I don't get how the feedback of delay 1 is influencing the feedback of the others, as you seem to imply? That didn't seem the case in my earlier testing, if I remember well (actually, it happened a few times, but that was because of Axe-Edit bugginess).

When you use real mixers and rack gear, there isn't really any other way to do it (in regards to the splitting to feed different units), without it getting overly complexed

Yes, I see... So I guess they would not do it this way in the Axe-FX and hopefully it is not important and even better to take the stereo outs here. OTOH, I can imagine it *could* be different/special with a stereo chorus feeding both delays (and both ON).

The rest seems clear. Off to sleep & TYVM!

Well, the first feedback controls all the lines in the Axe (which is the only feedback control in the PCM70 as far as I know, or at least the only one that does something in the 2 delay presets in question). I actually don't know how the other feedback controls control the rest, but the first one controls all of the lines in the most basic way.

In my presets, I totally skip the splitting (since this is a short-coming of the real gear anyway), and just send both left and right to pitch, delay etc. So chorus after amp/cab, then one half goes to the pitch, other half to a shunt, and I then sum them again after that. Then, I split it into 3 parallel lines, one to a shunt, and 2 to 2 different delays, and I then sum them all again after that. That's the most logical way IMHO.

 

[VegaBaby]

In my presets, I totally skip the splitting (since this is a short-coming of the real gear anyway), and just send both left and right to pitch, delay etc. So chorus after amp/cab, then one half goes to the pitch, other half to a shunt, and I then sum them again after that. Then, I split it into 3 parallel lines, one to a shunt, and 2 to 2 different delays, and I then sum them all again after that. That's the most logical way IMHO.

The cool thing in the Axe is that you can do the splitting thing as well and it yields very different tonal results to feed a Delay block with a Stereo Chorus or feeding that same Delay with only the left or right side of that Stereo Chorus.

At this point the hardware limitations people like Bradshaw ran into are pretty much gone and you can decide for yourself what outcome you prefer. Who knows, maybe Lukather would have liked it the one or another way better and it just wasn't as easy to do

 

[dongrosh]

it would be a pleasure if some of you could post the result of that intersting thread in kind of patches, PLEASE ! We now would like to hear an play that!!

thx in advance!

 

[vAmp]

it would be a pleasure if some of you could post the result of that intersting thread in kind of patches, PLEASE ! We now would like to hear an play that!!

I think it's coming down to the kind of patches that are already circulating... (joCCe, etc).
Except, I have not heard a truely OMG! sounding 80ies chorus/delay Luke/Landau lead preset yet (do *love* MK Editor's Crystal Clean), but maybe I just needed more volume and some EQ I'm not good with.

However, I think the new update and finally trying Redwirez is giving me the WOOOW amp sound now (not even critical about amp type), and that and/or routing it exactly like they did, might make the difference.
I sure hope to demonstrate my coming versions of it, but it might not be this week.
It's tonygtr's preset vault we wanna hear!

 

[vAmp]

The cool thing in the Axe is that you can do the splitting thing as well and it yields very different tonal results to feed a Delay block with a Stereo Chorus or feeding that same Delay with only the left or right side of that Stereo Chorus.

In respect to the earlier schematic, I'm guessing like this? The VIBE would be better in front of the chorus, I suspect (thinking Never Walk Alone). Where was the compressor placed when he used the DBX (for cleans only)?

Regarding the Tri-Stereo, there is dry in the actual unit, so that information is not correct. How much dry, is hard to tell, but there is definitely dry in there. It's somewhere between 25% and 50% of the signal, I think it's closer to the first number than the second.

I guess that means I "have to" put the mix of the chorus between 50 and 75%?

 

[guitarnerdswe]

The cool thing in the Axe is that you can do the splitting thing as well and it yields very different tonal results to feed a Delay block with a Stereo Chorus or feeding that same Delay with only the left or right side of that Stereo Chorus.

In respect to the earlier schematic, I'm guessing like this? The VIBE would be better in front of the chorus, I suspect (thinking Never Walk Alone). Where was the compressor placed when he used the DBX (for cleans only)?

Regarding the Tri-Stereo, there is dry in the actual unit, so that information is not correct. How much dry, is hard to tell, but there is definitely dry in there. It's somewhere between 25% and 50% of the signal, I think it's closer to the first number than the second.

I guess that means I "have to" put the mix of the chorus between 50 and 75%?

Hi!

The compressor was in series after preamp. Before the chorus unit, since the DBX 160A was mono in/out.

Try Enzos latest Tri-Stereo chorus preset. http://www.enzosutera.com/Sutera%20TRI+ ... %20DLY.rar
It's pretty close to the real deal, although you have to change it abit. The real unit has a rate jack, that changes the rate of the unit. Enzo has put this in the preset, (using the EXT controller). He has also decided that the rate jack changes other things than the rate (like minimal delay time, mix and depth), but I'm not so sure the actual unit does this.

Anyway, this is how I modified it. Remove all the modifiers connected, exept the one for the master rate, change these values:

Master time: 50%
Master depth: 80.3%
Mix: 40.2% (may sound like too little, but the chorus part of the block is way louder than the dry part, so this is plenty of wet compared to the dry)
Level: 0db

You still have the option to change the rate via an external controller. If you don't want to do that, the speed for the slow rate is 0.250hz, and the fast one is 3.02hz.

You can, also choose to have the external controller change the master time, master depth, mix and master rate like Enzo has originally intended, but then it's very important that you put the LFO3 rate mult to 1.000 instead of 0.100, or else you will get a weird slapback effect on the slow setting (thanks Enzo for this tip).

My personal opinion is that the settings for the fast rate (the ones I wrote abit further up) are closer to how the real thing sounds, regardless or rate (since I don't belive that rate jack on the unit changes anything other the rate), and when I think Tri-Stereo chorus, I think about the more dramatic effect of the faster rate (in other words, Landaus clean tone). I also change the high cut to 20000hz, to get more lushness out of it (I only use it on my clean Landau preset, which is without a cab sim, since I want that hifi kind of vibe). I just use the regular chorus block for all my other tones, since I like more detune than chorus on my regular tones.

 

[VegaBaby]

The cool thing in the Axe is that you can do the splitting thing as well and it yields very different tonal results to feed a Delay block with a Stereo Chorus or feeding that same Delay with only the left or right side of that Stereo Chorus.

In respect to the earlier schematic, I'm guessing like this? The VIBE would be better in front of the chorus, I suspect (thinking Never Walk Alone). Where was the compressor placed when he used the DBX (for cleans only)?

Yeah, that's how to do it ! Most of the time when I use any stereo modulation followed by delays or reverb in parallel, I actually prefer to send only one side of the modulation into anything else. That way, IMHO, I preserve a bit more clarity. But like I said, the beauty of the Axe is that you can easily build those monster rigs without really needing Bradshaw (or that kinda money)