Spring Reverbs?

[gabriele ciullo]

Can't hear the video in the USA:
This video contains content from Eagle Rock. It is not available in your country.

In this video (live at Motreaux-2010), Gary Moore uses a Boss RV5 in front of the Marshall head, before the pre and power amp drive.

 

[jzucker]

In this video (live at Motreaux-2010), Gary Moore uses a Boss RV5 in front of the Marshall head, before the power amp drive.

Not sure I even heard the same video since the original video link didn't work in the USA but searching it on youtube and listening to the clips, there's too much overdrive for me to get a good picture of what the reverb sounded like but in generall, boss doesn't have good reverb programs on anything I've heard. I liked the RV-2 but it seems that each revisions gets progressively worse.

 

[joegold]

I think you guys are making it way more complicated than it has to be.

Simply introduce a fender preamp "pedal" and a fender power amp. then add an option to bypass the preamp section of the amplifier. Simple!

You're new here Jack.
While there are already 2 ways to defeat the power amp sims, Cliff will never give us a power amp only model or expose the connection between the preamp sims and the power amp sims within the Amp Block.
He says that doing so would have the potential to give away too many of his trade secrets.
The closest thing to a power amp only sim in the Axe is the Tube Preamp amp Type in the Amp Block.
It has a very neutral preamp if you keep all the controls at noon and also has a neutral tube power amp sim built in as well which you could probably tweak with the advanced parameters to sound more like a Fender power amp if you really wanted to try.
That would use a lot of CPU though.

 

[joegold]

But there may hope for my original idea.
Several firmwares ago he gave us a tube driven tremolo sim within the Amp Block presumably because trying to achieve that sound with a separate tremolo block would not be as satisfactory.
Seems to me like a pre-power amp tube driven spring reverb sim within the Amp Block itself is in the same vein, conceptually speaking.
The only real issue would be CPU usage and whether or not Cliff is willing to do it.

 

[DavidE]

But there may hope for my original idea.
Several firmwares ago he gave us a tube driven tremolo sim within the Amp Block presumably because trying to achieve that sound with a separate tremolo block would not be as satisfactory.
Seems to me like a pre-power amp tube driven spring reverb sim within the Amp Block itself is in the same vein, conceptually speaking.
The only real issue would be CPU usage and whether or not Cliff is willing to do it.

What amp block has the tube driven tremolo? I want to check that out.

 

[Hubertus]

What amp block has the tube driven tremolo? I want to check that out.

All
http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=AMP_block_parameters#TREM.2FMIX_page

 

[joegold]

What amp block has the tube driven tremolo? I want to check that out.

The Amp Block itself has parameters for Tremelo Speed and Depth.
In Axe Edit it's on the Power Supply page.
I assume it's based on a tube driven tremolo circuit but I don't really know that.

 

[joegold]

So yeah...
To limit the CPU hit it might be possible to do this just on certain amp types rather than on all of them.
E.g. There could be a Deluxe Reverb sim that has the reverb built in and another Deluxe sim with the same preamp/power amp characteristics that doesn't have reverb built in.
Etc.

Again.
Just spitballin'.

 

[barhrecords]

The Amp Block itself has parameters for Tremelo Speed and Depth.
In Axe Edit it's on the Power Supply page.
I assume it's based on a tube driven tremolo circuit but I don't really know that.

IIRC this is bias tremolo. Created by modulating the amp block tube bias.

I wonder if a "sidechain" approach could be used for reverb and tremolo in regards to the amp block?

Some mechanism for inserting a restricted number of efx blocks between the preamp and power amp without exposing anything FAS proprietary.

Several of the blocks would be interesting as an insert: reverb, delay, tremolo, various EQ types.

 

[joegold]

IIRC this is bias tremolo. Created by modulating the amp block tube bias.

My bad.
Apologies.

From the pre-Quantum Release Notes:

"Added Bias Tremolo to Amp block. This is a true bias tremolo and works by varying the bias of the virtual power tubes. The tremolo action is therefore different than other types of tremolo and the amount of tremolo varies with a multitude of variables, most importantly the tremolo is “self-ducking” and decreases at higher signal amplitudes. Note particularly that bias tremolo is a somewhat crude tremolo circuit and it’s interaction with the power amp depends on many things including damping, bias, etc. On some amps high values of bias trem depth can result in excessive crossover distortion. On other amps the amount of tremolo can vary greatly between loud and soft playing. All this, however, is part of the allure of bias tremolo as it results in a particularly “organic” sound. Control of the bias tremolo is afforded by the Trem Freq and Trem Depth parameters. A modifier can be attached to Trem Depth to facilitate engaging and disengaging the tremolo via footswitch or for other applications."

 

[atquinn]

What amp block has the tube driven tremolo? I want to check that out.

They all have it. But only on the rack units. I believe that's the one thing on the Amp block that didn't make it to the AX8. De-phase, Motor Drive, Preamp and Room from the Cab block are on the rack units and not on the AX8. All the other blocks, where-present are the same I believe
-
Austin

 

[joegold]

Just noticed that this thread is in the wrong sub-forum.
Could one of the Admins please move this to the general Axe-FX Discussion sub-section?

Thanks.

 

[DavidE]

IIRC this is bias tremolo. Created by modulating the amp block tube bias.

I wonder if a "sidechain" approach could be used for reverb and tremolo in regards to the amp block?

Some mechanism for inserting a restricted number of efx blocks between the preamp and power amp without exposing anything FAS proprietary.

Several of the blocks would be interesting as an insert: reverb, delay, tremolo, various EQ types.

That sounds like essentially having an effects loop in the amp block which people said above Cliff won't do. Unless putting in a virtual loop in the amp is completely different than offering up separate preamps and power amps in terms of protecting his intellectual property. I would have no idea, but I would guess if it were doable it would already be done.

The other thing I thought about is that we're not ultimately emulating an amp in the room. We're really emulating the recording process. Based on my limited knowledge, historically effects like delay and reverb etc... were added to the signal after the speaker using the highest quality studio effects. Tons of exceptions of course. Interesting to talk about anyway.

 

[DavidE]

They all have it. But only on the rack units. I believe that's the one thing on the Amp block that didn't make it to the AX8. De-phase, Motor Drive, Preamp and Room from the Cab block are on the rack units and not on the AX8. All the other blocks, where-present are the same I believe
-
Austin

Ah, ok. So I can't check it out. ;-)

What does the "room" control do? I didn't see it on the Wiki:

http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=AMP_block_parameters#TREM.2FMIX_page

 

[barhrecords]

That sounds like essentially having an effects loop in the amp block which people said above Cliff won't do. Unless putting in a virtual loop in the amp is completely different than offering up separate preamps and power amps in terms of protecting his intellectual property. I would have no idea, but I would guess if it were doable it would already be done.

The other thing I thought about is that we're not ultimately emulating an amp in the room. We're really emulating the recording process. Based on my limited knowledge, historically effects like delay and reverb etc... were added to the signal after the speaker using the highest quality studio effects. Tons of exceptions of course. Interesting to talk about anyway.

I'm guessing that there is some audio processing between the pre amp and power amp sims, for example emphasis / de-emphasis. This would make inserting effects at that part of the audio stream not possible. As an alternative, a realistic spring verb and fender tremolo builtin to the amp block could do it.

In this particular case, we are talking about the reverb built-in to vintage fender amps. Not running a dedicated vintage verb in front of the amp and not adding reverb in post.

This thread is about how the vintage builtin reverbs are hard to nail exactly in the Fractal.

The reverbs that are in the Fractal are so good... I don't pine for much more lol

 

[atquinn]

Ah, ok. So I can't check it out. ;-)

What does the "room" control do? I didn't see it on the Wiki:

http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=AMP_block_parameters#TREM.2FMIX_page

It's a cab parameter. Nice for lending a roomy feel to an amp, especially through headphones. And then you can use the reverb block for something other than just simulating a room (although the reverb room simulations are more detailed, have more parameters, etc...)
http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=CAB_block#Parameter:_room_ambience
-
Austin

 

[DavidE]

In this particular case, we are talking about the reverb built-in to vintage fender amps. Not running a dedicated vintage verb in front of the amp and not adding reverb in post.
This thread is about how the vintage builtin reverbs are hard to nail exactly in the Fractal.

Right, understood. Ultimately, I guess I'm not that crazy particular about it. The spring reverbs sound pretty good to me, have versatile parameters and placing it before the amp or after the amp provides additional options. If I want to play some Dick Dale surf, that spring is going in front. ;-) Otherwise, I tend to put it between amp and cab/ir. Works for me.

There are definitely times I'm glad I don't have Eric Johnson ears and, really, just like what I like. If it sounds good to me and feels good to me, I ultimately don't care whether it sounds exactly like "the real thing," whatever that is. This is true even with tube amps. I gigged with my HK Tubemeister 36. Finally a 3 channel amp where I could get 3 sounds that really pleased me at gigs. Do I have amps with cleans I like more? Sure! '65 Princeton Reverb for one. A really special Fargen I have probably tops the list for clean with reverb. My Matchless Lightning 15 is freaking awesome. But I was really pleased with the clean sounds on the gig with the HK into a Mesa Thiele 1x12 with an EV.

 

[DavidE]

It's a cab parameter. Nice for lending a roomy feel to an amp, especially through headphones. And then you can use the reverb block for something other than just simulating a room (although the reverb room simulations are more detailed, have more parameters, etc...)
http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=CAB_block#Parameter:_room_ambience
-
Austin

Wait, are you going to tell me that I can get the sound of an amp in the room by using the room parameter? I don't expect that.

 

[atquinn]

Wait, are you going to tell me that I can get the sound of an amp in the room by using the room parameter? I don't expect that.

Not exactly. It's like if you use the Studio reverb, say, but not as fancy. Doesn't really sound like an amp in the room with you. But there is a room effect. I don't think a ton of people use it, but I often like to dial it in a bit.
-
Austin

 

[joegold]

That sounds like essentially having an effects loop in the amp block

Not to me.

which people said above Cliff won't do.

He won't. He's said so innumerable times.

Unless putting in a virtual loop in the amp is completely different than offering up separate preamps and power amps in terms of protecting his intellectual property. I would have no idea, but I would guess if it were doable it would already be done.

I think it's doable.
I just don't think he'll ever do it.

The other thing I thought about is that we're not ultimately emulating an amp in the room. We're really emulating the recording process. Based on my limited knowledge, historically effects like delay and reverb etc... were added to the signal after the speaker using the highest quality studio effects. Tons of exceptions of course. Interesting to talk about anyway.

The main exception is the one we're talking about now, namely, guitar amps (e.g. Fender amps) with spring reverbs after the tone stack rather than before.
Not sure if it's really akin to a modern effects loop though with external reverb after the entire preamp but before the power amp's input.
Which is another reason why doing it in the Amp Block itself, with the correct type of circuit being simulated in software, has the potential to be more authentic.