Should I try to "bake in" my FOH EQ (for inexperienced/busy/deaf/stoned Sound guys)?

Eric T Amble

Eric T Amble

Inspired
Hi everybody,

So here's what I'm thinking. We've all worked with FOH people who can't get us to sit in the mix/cut through/etc. for a host of reasons.
Is there such a thing as an optimum EQ curve for a guitarist in a certain situation (e.g., hard rock, I'm one of two guitar players, keyboard and 3-part harmony vocals, double kick, in a medium-sized room, etc.) that I can obtain and tone match to--that will let the FOH guy set me more-or-less flat and then tweak me just a bit for the room? This could "bake-in" e.g., all the high and low shelving for the cab, spike in the high mids, etc. to get me to sit best in my band's mix without the sound guy having to put down his or her bong.
Is this just a pipe dream? I know it varies from room to room, and we shouldn't have to ask for more EQ on already EQd sound, but can we find out the best rule-of-thumb, and then tone match to it to minimize the avoidable problems?
Side note: it would be cool if the sequel to the Axe-Fx was called the "Band-FX", letting you plug in all your mics and instruments and offering interdependent, per-instrument compression/EQs to make the whole band sound like whatever, from whenever.
Anyway, please comment!

Thanks,
Eric
 
In my experience, it's a losing battle. I adjust my tones to sound best with a flat system in a treated room at loud volume. To even have a chance, you'd have to know the characteristics of the PA and the room. And most importantly (and least likely), you'd need to have a sound man who would actually leave your signal flat; no hp or lp filters, no eq, no compression, no effects...essentially a straight-wire path from your rig to the power amps. I've never met one who would do this. Ever. They all slap on filters and compressors even before they hear the signal I send them. They all, without exception, butcher the lead vocal with tap-tempo delays on EVERY song. No credentials are required for the job, and it is painfully apparent at every show.

That's my nugget of sunshine anyway.
 
I agree with steadystate. Dial in the best sound you can, and just have the sound person run it flat on the channel strip. For most rooms, that should get you pretty close.
 
Geezerjohn said:
I agree with steadystate. Dial in the best sound you can, and just have the sound person run it flat on the channel strip. For most rooms, that should get you pretty close.
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+1

Get your tone to sound and feel its best, so you can play your best.
Let FOH hopefully do their part.
 
Going straight to FOH It's always a leap of faith. Make sure all musicians can hear what they need to hear and hope for the best.
 
In my experience most FOH guys try to do the best they can, even if they suck at it. And its not like many guitarists don't do their best to ruin their own sound. Especially metal guitarists with their 'No Midz, all teh Gain!' fixation. Or god forbid use a Boss Metal Zone. How the hell am I supposed to make you sit into the mix when you eliminate from your sound the very frequencies that you need?

If you really want total control of how you sound, get a digital mixer like the X32, then you can mix everything yourself to your heart's content and only give the FOH a stereo output to patch through. Then you only have yourself to blame if it still sounds pants.
 
Remember that sometimes that horrible house sound you hear during sound check and an empty venue can actually sound pretty good when the venue is packed. Sometimes the engineers actually know what they are doing....
 
Muad'zin said:
If you really want total control of how you sound, get a digital mixer like the X32, then you can mix everything yourself to your heart's content and only give the FOH a stereo output to patch through. Then you only have yourself to blame if it still sounds pants.
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We've done that, only to have the FOH guy engage the low cut filters on the stereo channel of his board, obliterating all below 80 Hz. We spent over 10 minutes telling him there was no low end. He insisted it was us. It took me two seconds to find the problem once I looked at his end. Then there's another guy, who compressed the crap out of the entire mix. Never underestimate the destructive power of the FOH "engineer" who wants to play with his toys.

Unless you have total control from instrument to power amp, there are no guarantees. I'll stay with presets made with a flat reference.
 
I try to give the sound guy a leg up by making my tone mix-ready, but that's an inexact science. Different venues, different players, different bands...they all add up to ensure that there's no such thing as an optimized tone that always sits perfectly in the mix—even if the sound guy actually knows his craft.
 
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I always talk to the FOH engineer and tell him what I want. It's a good idea to even hand them a simple instruction sheet. And it is standard practice for the engineer to implement a low cut on a guitar track. We're not bass players. And if we keep thinking like bass players the guitar will always get lost in the mix. You don't ever want to compete with the kick and bass. So it's best to stay away from those frequencies. I always use a final eq block on my Channel 1 (FOH channel). I low cut at 100hz and hi cut at 8k. This removes the boom that will get the guitar lost and cuts the highs so the knife cutting shrill is gone in the hi frequency drivers. There are many isolated guitar tracks, from famous players, on YouTube. I suggest listening to them. Most will be amazed how much bass is cut on those tracks. But when you hear the whole mix you immediately understand why it is cut.
 
If your FOH guy can't handle a guitar sound ... well, then there's nothing to be saved anyways... :D
 
I'm one of those guys that has a tendency to stress over detail. The goal is a quality show, always ..... but there is a law of diminishing returns out there. Most of us can't afford a dedicated and talented sound tech. You do the best you can to set yourself up for success walking in the door.... and then forget it all, and just play the piss out of whatever is there. At the end of the day, whatever it is (classical, jazz, country, punk...) ITS ONLY ROCK N ROLL!!!
 
Having run live sound before, I have to say I find it interesting how every guitarist seems be magically have exceptional audio engineering talent. Even though most of them have never done the job, they all seem to know how it "should" be done.

In reality these "experts" often don't do a very good mix, usually just wanting to hear themselves far louder than anyone else in the band.

This isn't to say there aren't guitar players who can also mix properly, but just because your good at playing guitar does not mean you know what your doing with regards to running a live board.

Seemingly every Fractal owner is also a master audio engineer though ;)
 
lqdsnddist said:
Seemingly every Fractal owner is also a master audio engineer though ;)
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Hit the nail on the head on that one... Worry about your sound so you are happy and play your best. Cutting a cut wont hurt anything.

Let the sound guy do his job. Shitty sound guys have a way of not getting hired again.
 
lqdsnddist said:
Having run live sound before, I have to say I find it interesting how every guitarist seems be magically have exceptional audio engineering talent. Even though most of them have never done the job, they all seem to know how it "should" be done.

In reality these "experts" often don't do a very good mix, usually just wanting to hear themselves far louder than anyone else in the band.

This isn't to say there aren't guitar players who can also mix properly, but just because your good at playing guitar does not mean you know what your doing with regards to running a live board.

Seemingly every Fractal owner is also a master audio engineer though ;)
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I totally agree. I have been running sound for decades. The biggest thing I see in guitar players is they want their lows boosted because they want to sound like James or John, etc. I look at them and shake my head up and down, then eq the right way. The whole purpose of mixing is exactly what it is called, mixing. This doesn't just mean volume. You have to carve out a place in the EQ chain for every instrument, drums and vocals.Even ambient noise has to be controlled. As I mentioned before, every guitar player should listen to the many pro engineered isolated guitar tracks. If you love your tone, standing in front of your rig, you are probably EQ'd wrong. What matters is how you sound mixed with all the other pieces in your band.
 
also, i have to say, it's usually difficult to hear correctly by yourself. What you hear when you play is not exactly what everyone hears. In my case, I can't hear correctly high frequency. So I usually tried to adjust EQ to compensate, and all band said it was difficult for them. Too shap ! For few months, I didn't understand.
One day, I discovered how to use the loop block, and I tried to record some rif and hear them without playing...
The sound was really different of what I heard when I played. Too sharp !! (like everybody said)
Now I adjust all my sounds with the loop bloc... And everyone is ok with my new sounds...
So, if you have to adjust something by yourself. Don't play during adjustments. Record and adjust.;)
 
Tommy Tempest said:
I totally agree. I have been running sound for decades. The biggest thing I see in guitar players is they want their lows boosted because they want to sound like James or John, etc. I look at them and shake my head up and down, then eq the right way. The whole purpose of mixing is exactly what it is called, mixing. This doesn't just mean volume. You have to carve out a place in the EQ chain for every instrument, drums and vocals.Even ambient noise has to be controlled. As I mentioned before, every guitar player should listen to the many pro engineered isolated guitar tracks. If you love your tone, standing in front of your rig, you are probably EQ'd wrong. What matters is how you sound mixed with all the other pieces in your band.
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Same here.. as a guitar and bass player and having run sound for decades.. If I had a dime for every guitar player I came across who thinks like some of the posts in this thread.. I'd have RETIRED decades ago..
It's a SYMBIOTIC relationship!!
Are there some numbskull FOH guys out there? Sure. but most I know do the best they can given what they have to work with. You're not going to get a pro-level PA guy (+ gear) for $100 a night!!

I've known plenty of guitar players over the years (and some now) who have no idea of where they sit in an FOH mix, nor the necessary tone required and think that KRANKING it solves the "sit in the mix" problem. Errrr. NO !!
Mostly because they play at home alone.. is my guess.

As a bassist, it's the same thing with the average keyboard player who has that wandering left hand. They think every song is a freakin' concerto and STOMP all over the kick and bass frequencies. HPF those puppies.

As @Tommy Tempest mentioned. some of you should "listen to the many pro engineered isolated guitar tracks" you can find on youtube. On first listen you will probably go "Ewwww.. horrible".. but they work GREAT in the mix and are very distinct.
 
@Eric T Amble Leap of faith, bro! As you can see by some of the responses here, they'll (the sound guys) will make sure you do as your told as they know what's in your best interest because they have superior knowledge and are a level above mere musicians.

I Can't wait for the invention of hardware/software that analyzes, optimizes and automates live sound mixing in real time in response to room/space characteristics. Input some info, run live optimization test, apply suggested mix, set to desired db levels. Perfect sound, no bs egos to deal with. Fire those frustrated, jaded, 'spotlight-envy' losers.:D
 
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