POLL: The most accurate PAF replica...

[SpudMan]

@SpudMan there’s a used R7 with shaved neck (“closer to a 59”) now down to $3500cdn/$2300usd ish, if you want me to pick it up box it and send it down.

Thanks, I generally shy away from buying guitars that I haven't had the opportunity to play first. Sounds interesting though. BTW, what does "shaved neck" mean? Was this a factory thing, or a modification later by the purchaser of the guitar?

 

[Budda]

Thanks, I generally shy away from buying guitars that I haven't had the opportunity to play first. Sounds interesting though. BTW, what does "shaved neck" mean? Was this a factory thing, or a modification later by the purchaser of the guitar?

Im not sure my percentage of blind buys, but above 50% i think - and much higher for the high end stuff haha. I know what I do and dont like for the things that matter most (neck dimensions and weight).

The shaved neck was definitely aftermarket, but it looks well done. There are highly reputable people in the Toronto area who have done such work, but the listing doesnt say who it was.

 

[SpudMan]

Im not sure my percentage of blind buys, but above 50% i think - and much higher for the high end stuff haha. I know what I do and dont like for the things that matter most (neck dimensions and weight).

The shaved neck was definitely aftermarket, but it looks well done. There are highly reputable people in the Toronto area who have done such work, but the listing doesnt say who it was.

I really do appreciate your offer. I really prefer a guitar that hasn't been modified. Again though, I do appreciate the offer. It is most kind and one thing I like about this forum, good people and minimal snark.

 

[Churchhill]

I need to research further to give a truly informed answer, but off the top of my head it would still be the following. If you go to the webpage and read the long description it mentions the various vintage/authentic design that went into them. In fact it says they had access to the actual pickups Kossof had in his guitar to base their design (schematic and components). And the similarities with Peter Green's pickups is just a bonus.
That being said, I would also look at their SLE-101 pickups which are their flagship model. The neck is lower output than the Koss but many have spoken very highly of them. I could be wrong, but I think that these are the ones Collings used to offer.
I should mention here though that Craig at Vineham said he could build me pickups based on the Throbak Koss design.
But again, I need to research further before giving a definitive answer. I just lean to the Kossof pickups because, as I mentioned before, his tone on Fire and Water, and Oh I Wept, are just what I love. But so much of that is from his hands, head and heart that no pickup can guarantee to deliver a similar tone.

Koss-301 MXV P.A.F. Pickup Repros - Made in USA​

Neck 8.6k , Bridge 7.6k (Sam Li repair spec.), 7.7k bridge (Pre Repair Spec.)​

Ah, yeah, sorry I forgot about you talking about the Koss-301 earlier. I am glad to know that you'd been considering the SLE-101, too. I'm debating between that one and the DT-102. I've heard so many good things about the SLE, but the description of the DT sounds very much like what I'm looking for.

I'm probably going to buy some magnets from him. I've got a set of Custombuckers that don't have a home and I think I'm going to do some swapping, try them with something other than the A3s they come with.

Thanks for letting me know!

 

[Churchhill]

I really do appreciate your offer. I really prefer a guitar that hasn't been modified. Again though, I do appreciate the offer. It is most kind and one thing I like about this forum, good people and minimal snark.

Yes, the community here is great! I can only imagine the reaction to this thread on some other forums. Here, this has been a great discussion!

 

[6L6C]

I have a 1980 Les Paul standard and yes, I am the original owner. During the 80s I used to change out guitar pickups in this guitar like a fiend. I was always looking for “better”, whatever “better” was I couldn't tell you. This was all based on friends’ advice, people who worked in music stores, and of course guitar magazines since we are predating the Internet. A lot of the pickups I tried sounded great, especially when driven where they somewhat fell apart from my taste were the cleans. Not necessarily when played as individuals but when both pickups were engaged bridge and neck there was something missing that the original set of pickups had.
I would have put the original set of pickups back in the guitar however I am an idiot of the 80s and God knows what happened to those pickups. Through trial and error during the 80s I discovered I like the PAF sound. So when in 1993 I believe it was, Duncan came out with the Seth Lover set I ordered them. And there it was I had it all back including the bridge and neck pickup together.

These were my thoughts at the time also:

The Duncan Seth Lover was developed by Seymour with Seth Lover who invented the PAF. Wound on the original winders, bobbin molds from the original factory etc.

Time marches on:

Around 2015 and also 2017 I believe Duncan came out with the Joe Bonamassa set’s one called the Magellan and the other called the Skinner burst based on his 59 Les Pauls so the Seth Lovers came out of my Les Paul. The Seth Lover, The Magellan, and The Skinnerburst, what do they have in common all based on late 50’s PAF. The Seth lover was a recreation pick up how it was made in 1959 should say late 50s. The Magellan and the Skinnerburst on the other hand are recreations of pickups were at the time 55 years old. I pulled the covers off the Seth Lover set and put them in my Flying V they sounded great as time passed I ended up swapping the magnets for a A3’s (just for a little difference).
Life was fine since from 2017 until now. Started reading this thread over the past week got me thinking again. So I put the A2 magnets back on the Seth Lovers in the V but still left off the covers. The Skinnerburst set came out of the Les Paul and put in a new set of Seth Lovers, I do like them a bit better than the other two sets however they all sound good.

Why the Seth Lover again, well yes, I already know I like them. O ---- and there is this

The Duncan Seth Lover was developed by Seymour with Seth Lover who invented the PAF. Wound on the original winders, bobbin molds from the original factory etc. If the goal is accuracy

I agree with @skolacki if you want a PAF "recreation" from that late 50's era, you have the man himself and some of the machines. As for all the choices given in the poll. Truth of the matter I'm sure they all sound great just pick a set and roll with it.

​

 

[Andy Eagle]

The Duncan covers are not accurate looking .

 

[Andy Eagle]

The Throbak is the actual moulds for the bobbins and the former and winding machines from Gibson. Same supplier of other materials where still in business .

 

[R.D.]

The Throbak is the actual moulds for the bobbins and the former and winding machines from Gibson. Same supplier of other materials where still in business .

^^ THIS ^^

I ordered mine slightly reliced and they look like 60 year old 'kit' .... Sound unbeliveable too !

 

[SpudMan]

@Churchhill: Any thoughts on this guitar? Not a 57 RI, but I am not 100% committed to 57, just vintage. Wondering if the Wildwood spec custombuckers are a wild card in that they aren't the standard. Just wondering, is this like your 60 RI
https://themusicemporium.com/products/gibson-custom-shop-ww-spec-60-les-paul-standard-used-2022

 

[Churchhill]

@Churchhill: Any thoughts on this guitar? Not a 57 RI, but I am not 100% committed to 57, just vintage. Wondering if the Wildwood spec custombuckers are a wild card in that they aren't the standard. Just wondering, is this like your 60 RI
https://themusicemporium.com/products/gibson-custom-shop-ww-spec-60-les-paul-standard-used-2022

My thought is that it's extremely similar to my R0. It'll have a slimmer neck that the 57 RI you've been looking at. They are very comfortable, to me, and while I don't mind thicker necks, I prefer slimmer ones like this. If it's anything like mine, you should be very happy with it. Put another way, if I was in the market, I'd seriously consider this one. The recent Reissues are great guitars!

Edit: I don't really know about the WW-spec CBs, but my guess is that they're slightly underwound, but probably not by much. CBs aren't exactly hot pickups, usually around 8k and mine are about 7.9k. In any case, they will get you in the ballpark.

 

[Churchhill]

I have a 1980 Les Paul standard and yes, I am the original owner. During the 80s I used to change out guitar pickups in this guitar like a fiend. I was always looking for “better”, whatever “better” was I couldn't tell you. This was all based on friends’ advice, people who worked in music stores, and of course guitar magazines since we are predating the Internet. A lot of the pickups I tried sounded great, especially when driven where they somewhat fell apart from my taste were the cleans. Not necessarily when played as individuals but when both pickups were engaged bridge and neck there was something missing that the original set of pickups had.
I would have put the original set of pickups back in the guitar however I am an idiot of the 80s and God knows what happened to those pickups. Through trial and error during the 80s I discovered I like the PAF sound. So when in 1993 I believe it was, Duncan came out with the Seth Lover set I ordered them. And there it was I had it all back including the bridge and neck pickup together.

These were my thoughts at the time also:

Time marches on:

Around 2015 and also 2017 I believe Duncan came out with the Joe Bonamassa set’s one called the Magellan and the other called the Skinner burst based on his 59 Les Pauls so the Seth Lovers came out of my Les Paul. The Seth Lover, The Magellan, and The Skinnerburst, what do they have in common all based on late 50’s PAF. The Seth lover was a recreation pick up how it was made in 1959 should say late 50s. The Magellan and the Skinnerburst on the other hand are recreations of pickups were at the time 55 years old. I pulled the covers off the Seth Lover set and put them in my Flying V they sounded great as time passed I ended up swapping the magnets for a A3’s (just for a little difference).
Life was fine since from 2017 until now. Started reading this thread over the past week got me thinking again. So I put the A2 magnets back on the Seth Lovers in the V but still left off the covers. The Skinnerburst set came out of the Les Paul and put in a new set of Seth Lovers, I do like them a bit better than the other two sets however they all sound good.

Why the Seth Lover again, well yes, I already know I like them. O ---- and there is this


I agree with @skolacki if you want a PAF "recreation" from that late 50's era, you have the man himself and some of the machines. As for all the choices given in the poll. Truth of the matter I'm sure they all sound great just pick a set and roll with it.

​

Really appreciate your comments and your experience! Duncan's got a new Bonamassa set now, the Blonde Dot, which also look like they'd be pretty good, too. And I think you're right, most of not all of the sets mentioned in this thread are likely good sounding and within the parameters of what "PAF" means to most.

 

[Churchhill]

So... the question remains, what am I going to do?

One of the questions that I really wanted to know is how much does the accuracy of all of the components matter to the final sound. Because I think that the magnetic circuit is king, this includes everything that has an impact on that circuit, like the metal alloys, the bobbin shape, and the magnets themselves. From what I've been able to ascertain, there are only about a handful of companies that are really making an effort to reproduce that as closely as possible. Since Throbak is one of those, and has several of the actual winders from Kalamazoo, they win. Duncan has one of the old winders, too, but don't seem to replicate the other materials to the same extent. I think Rewind is worth mentioning, too, but quite honestly, those winding machines are part of the equation for me.

Accordingly, I've been in contact with Jon Gundry and he's been very helpful! Granted, most of my questions have been about the tone of specific models, but I have no doubt he'd be helpful about the rest of it, too. Their website is a good resource for that. I've narrowed this down to three models:

DT-102 - The description sounds like it's exactly what I'm looking for WRT my 347. It's all maple, including the neck, and is a little brighter. So, I think the rounder sound of these will be a good fit. My question now is, what do I do with the factory coil-tap switch? My first thought is, I don't use it, so why bother hooking it up. But then I thought, what if I could turn it into a phase reverse? I might use that... Jury's still out, but I'll make a decision soon.

KZ-115 - I'm interested in this because the winding pattern is pretty different from their SLE-101. This one has a choice of magnets, more on that in a minute... This is what I'll likely put in my 355.

SLE-101 - This is what put them on the map and, well, I understand why. Comes highly recommended by several people in this thread. I might get these instead of the KZ-115, or I might just find another guitar to put them in.

Additionally, I have several Gibson Custombuckers that I'm not using at the moment. I've already got CBs in my R0 and don't really want to duplicate the sound. So, I'm ordering a couple of magnets from Throbak that I'll swap into these and give them a shot. Whichever one I like best will likely be the type of magnet I select for the KZ-115.

Finally, I ordered a set of the Gibson 1959 Collector's Edition. I know some may not agree with this choice, but it's not their guitar (or their money), either. I also know that the price is these is inflated because of the name. But... I've had pretty good luck with Gibson pickups lately, including the recent Firebird pickups I installed, the MHS in my 345, and the Custombuckers in my R0. There are a grand total of two videos of these that I've been able to find on YT; one of those sounded really good and the other didn't really do anything justice, IMHO. So, why not... I installed them over the weekend and am waiting until I get used to them before posting a review. My first impression is that they sound GREAT, even if they don't look quite as accurate of some. I'll post more in a few days, but in the meantime, my wife says that I did NOT waste my money on these and I trust her ears. They really are pretty great sounding, so far...

 

[Churchhill]

^^ THIS ^^

I ordered mine slightly reliced and they look like 60 year old 'kit' .... Sound unbeliveable too !

Just curious, which model did you choose and what do you have them in? The one thing I wish Throbak had is more consistent demos of their pickups, like something done by the same player using the same gear. I'm sure they all sound good, but I'm equally sure they all sound different, too. Demos alone aren't the best indicator of what they'll sound like in a specific guitar, but they can help.

 

[Dave Merrill]

@Churchhill: Any thoughts on this guitar? Not a 57 RI, but I am not 100% committed to 57, just vintage. Wondering if the Wildwood spec custombuckers are a wild card in that they aren't the standard. Just wondering, is this like your 60 RI
https://themusicemporium.com/products/gibson-custom-shop-ww-spec-60-les-paul-standard-used-2022

Hey, does you looking at that site mean you're in that neighborhood? I am, they're 5 min from my house. I don't go there much, too much stuff I can't afford, but it is where my Collings came from.

 

[Rex]

So... the question remains, what am I going to do?

That's the question you keep returning to, 270 posts later. Having analyzed this to death, I think the thing to do is to pick a likely candidate, and try it out. That's the only way you'll ever really find out what you like.

Beyond a certain point, product selection by analysis of opinions and literature is an exercise in futility. Unless the exercise itself is the goal.

 

[Churchhill]

That's the question you keep returning to, 270 posts later. Having analyzed this to death, I think the thing to do is to pick a likely candidate, and try it out. That's the only way you'll ever really find out what you like.

Beyond a certain point, product selection by analysis of opinions and literature is an exercise in futility. Unless the exercise itself is the goal.

Well, yeah, the exercise itself is part of the goal, but the rest of the post you quoted outlines what I've done and what I'm going to do.

 

[SpudMan]

Hey, does you looking at that site mean you're in that neighborhood? I am, they're 5 min from my house. I don't go there much, too much stuff I can't afford, but it is where my Collings came from.

Sadly far away. I just remembered the store from an earlier post of yours where you mentioned a used Collings CL for sale. The one with the repaired headstock. But the guitar I referenced here looks really nice, and I have spent lots of time in Boston earlier in life.

 

[R.D.]

Just curious, which model did you choose and what do you have them in? The one thing I wish Throbak had is more consistent demos of their pickups, like something done by the same player using the same gear. I'm sure they all sound good, but I'm equally sure they all sound different, too. Demos alone aren't the best indicator of what they'll sound like in a specific guitar, but they can help.

I wanted a little hotter ( overwound ? ) P.A.F., so I went w/ the MC-102Bs .... I had the Neck pickup reversed so I could get the Peter Green out of phase middle sound. It's cool ..., but it's also a one-trick pony and I'm starting to think I should've just left it stock ....

Anyway, he's a shot of the guitar ....

 

[Rex]

...the rest of the post you quoted outlines what I've done and what I'm going to do.

I know. Just riding your case because... well... there you are, and you’re good-natured enough that I figured you wouldn’t bite back too hard.

Otherwise, my post still stands. If I could have back just half of all the hours I’ve spent researching things beyond the point of usability, chasing opinions and reviews and blurbs...