Playing around with my Voodoo Valve

[rickgk]

Great info here in this thread since my last post that is for sure, and thanks to Cliff for chiming in. I am able to dial in something very similar using an envelope and Gate in the Layout page. So that is nice the more i tweaked it the better it seems to get!!!!!


Joe

So problem solved?

After messing with it, it's still a bit more touchy than the Hush in the voodoo is so i'm hoping to find out what can be done to make it more solid after it closes off the noise. So i'll scratch this setup and hope to figure out one that mimic's the Hush/isp.

Joe

Any more luck with this joe? Have you tried the super c in the fx loop yet? I can't get to my axe until the weekend unfortunately.

 

[Trem]

Re: Re:

I don't understand why it's suggested that the envelope filter be the first block in the chain when products like the hush or decimator recommend placement after drive pedals, preamps or both?

Because the physical devices are prone to being noisy.
Dealing with the Axe-Fx, almost any noise is picked up at the input (= at the guitar).

 

[rickgk]

Re: Re:

I don't understand why it's suggested that the envelope filter be the first block in the chain when products like the hush or decimator recommend placement after drive pedals, preamps or both?

Because the physical devices are prone to being noisy.
Dealing with the Axe-Fx, almost any noise is picked up at the input (= at the guitar).

rocktron don't recommend plugging the guitar straight into the super c, the fx loop block could be placed at the start of the axe-fx chain and would eliminate any input mismatching problems that might occur by plugging directly into the super c.

 

[Trem]

Re: Re:

rocktron don't recommend plugging the guitar straight into the super c, the fx loop block could be placed at the start of the axe-fx chain and would eliminate any input mismatching problems that might occur by plugging directly into the super c.

missed the point.

but yeah that is the cool thing about the decimator although neither are needed with the axefx.

 

[rickgk]

Re: Re:

rocktron don't recommend plugging the guitar straight into the super c, the fx loop block could be placed at the start of the axe-fx chain and would eliminate any input mismatching problems that might occur by plugging directly into the super c.

missed the point.

but yeah that is the cool thing about the decimator although neither are needed with the axefx.

I did check the shielding on my parker df824 & suhr modern after your earlier posts and it's as spot on as i'll ever be able to get it on both but i honestly wouldn't have the patience to wrap the pickups leads with copper tape as well (maybe i should wear a copper hat too).

Your missing the point of the whole topic to begin with, as you can hear from the clip posted by joe there is a difference between the noise on the axe and the vv with the same guitar/recording interface/leads etc

Please don't misinterpret me I am not trying to say the axe is noisy at all nor am i understating the importance of a properly shielded guitar what i am saying is that a high gain setting in the axe or any real world amp will accentuate any noise emanating from the guitar (and all guitars pickup some degree of noise no matter how well it's shielded even yours my friend)
The more gain used the more the unwanted noise increases also, that's just a fact.
If you don't use alot of gain then you will probably never experience what we are talking about in this thread.

With a noise reduction unit such as the hush the perceived volume of this noise can be lowered, and gives to my ears at least a more pleasing result for sustained note decay & sharp staccato rhythms than the gate in the axe does currently, but as cliff stated this is comparing apples to oranges so is not a criticism at all of the axe on my behalf, it's a very minor & subtle issue but if there is something i can do within the axe settings to get the result i am after i am sure going to ask around and try to get to the bottom of it.

 

[senseix]

After messing with it, it's still a bit more touchy than the Hush in the voodoo is so i'm hoping to find out what can be done to make it more solid after it closes off the noise. So i'll scratch this setup and hope to figure out one that mimic's the Hush/isp.

Joe

Any more luck with this joe? Have you tried the super c in the fx loop yet? I can't get to my axe until the weekend unfortunately.

No more luck, I dug out my super c, and i can't find the power brick for it So that is a no go.

What would be nice is when i use high gain tones, my Ultra performs at least as good as the hush/isp. With the knowledge i have and the knowledge given to me in this thread by others, I'm still disappointed.

This has nothing to do with my guitar being to noisy it has to do with me and some others not being able to mimic the hush/isp with the Ultra. If someone knows how to get the Axe to act like a hush, then i'd appreciate a post that is detailed explaining how. If it's not possible then why not add it to the Axe? Seems to me that for high gain users who want to record that would be appealing.

 

[jerotas]

Well I screwed around with the faux-HUSH settings and had excellent settings for rhythm, but it doesn't seem possible to dial in a good filter + gate for lead to allow sufficiently long lead notes without getting them cut off and while still having HUSH-ness come in and squash the white noise when we're "really finished". It's either cutting stuff off too early, or not reducing enough noise.

What we need is the ability to move the make the envelope modifier slant on Frequency from 0% to 100% with 100% at like 15% envelope so anything above that 15% would be at 100% frequency. But modifiers currently don't have enough controls to accomplish that. Without the needed control, we have to settle for less noise reduction than we want (Filter) and set the gate to a really high threshold like -50db which cuts off your long lead notes anyway - defeating the purpose.

So the main culprit here is there's only 3 points we can set for the modifier section: beginning, middle and end. We were setting middle and end to 100% and start to 0%. However, between the middle and beginning points is a large usable envelope portion of nice decaying notes that's going to waste (getting silenced or EQ'd) in our scenario at all possible settings because an vital part of decaying notes is around 15-30% envelope, which slopes real fast with these limitations. Now if we could get a new modifier parameter called "middle position" that defaults to 50% and can be moved left or right, we could do it - I'd set the middle position to maybe 15% for this scenario, but that's a guess. But there's no way to do that....It seems like that would be a relatively easy thing for Cliff to add.

This would also be usable in any other modifier scenario. So you could make wah wah more sensitive in the first X% or last X% for example, or many other cool new settings. So to me it seems like a quick win if Cliff has time to do it.

 

[biggness]

Well I screwed around with the faux-HUSH settings and had excellent settings for rhythm, but it doesn't seem possible to dial in a good filter + gate for lead to allow sufficiently long lead notes without getting them cut off and while still having HUSH-ness come in and squash the white noise when we're "really finished". It's either cutting stuff off too early, or not reducing enough noise.

What we need is the ability to move the make the envelope modifier slant on Frequency from 0% to 100% with 100% at like 15% envelope so anything above that 15% would be at 100% frequency. But modifiers currently don't have enough controls to accomplish that. Without the needed control, we have to settle for less noise reduction than we want (Filter) and set the gate to a really high threshold like -50db which cuts off your long lead notes anyway - defeating the purpose.

So the main culprit here is there's only 3 points we can set for the modifier section: beginning, middle and end. We were setting middle and end to 100% and start to 0%. However, between the middle and beginning points is a large usable envelope portion of nice decaying notes that's going to waste (getting silenced or EQ'd) in our scenario at all possible settings because an vital part of decaying notes is around 15-30% envelope, which slopes real fast with these limitations. Now if we could get a new modifier parameter called "middle position" that defaults to 50% and can be moved left or right, we could do it - I'd set the middle position to maybe 15% for this scenario, but that's a guess. But there's no way to do that....It seems like that would be a relatively easy thing for Cliff to add.

This would also be usable in any other modifier scenario. So you could make wah wah more sensitive in the first X% or last X% for example, or many other cool new settings. So to me it seems like a quick win if Cliff has time to do it.

Have you tried playing with offset, slope and damping in the modifier page? I figure with some tweaking of the slope and damping, you could get the envelope to fade out gracefully for this. I don't know that yet though. I will play around with it later today and see what I can come up with. What settings are you using currently, for the envelope/filter and the gate?

 

[jerotas]

Well I screwed around with the faux-HUSH settings and had excellent settings for rhythm, but it doesn't seem possible to dial in a good filter + gate for lead to allow sufficiently long lead notes without getting them cut off and while still having HUSH-ness come in and squash the white noise when we're "really finished". It's either cutting stuff off too early, or not reducing enough noise.

What we need is the ability to move the make the envelope modifier slant on Frequency from 0% to 100% with 100% at like 15% envelope so anything above that 15% would be at 100% frequency. But modifiers currently don't have enough controls to accomplish that. Without the needed control, we have to settle for less noise reduction than we want (Filter) and set the gate to a really high threshold like -50db which cuts off your long lead notes anyway - defeating the purpose.

So the main culprit here is there's only 3 points we can set for the modifier section: beginning, middle and end. We were setting middle and end to 100% and start to 0%. However, between the middle and beginning points is a large usable envelope portion of nice decaying notes that's going to waste (getting silenced or EQ'd) in our scenario at all possible settings because an vital part of decaying notes is around 15-30% envelope, which slopes real fast with these limitations. Now if we could get a new modifier parameter called "middle position" that defaults to 50% and can be moved left or right, we could do it - I'd set the middle position to maybe 15% for this scenario, but that's a guess. But there's no way to do that....It seems like that would be a relatively easy thing for Cliff to add.

This would also be usable in any other modifier scenario. So you could make wah wah more sensitive in the first X% or last X% for example, or many other cool new settings. So to me it seems like a quick win if Cliff has time to do it.

Have you tried playing with offset, slope and damping in the modifier page? I figure with some tweaking of the slope and damping, you could get the envelope to fade out gracefully for this. I don't know that yet though. I will play around with it later today and see what I can come up with. What settings are you using currently, for the envelope/filter and the gate?

Yes, I tried all that. For like 30 minutes. I only have a good rhythm patch with good noise reduction. For lead settings I always get my notes cut off (especially on the highest 2 strings) after only like 5-7 seconds. Not nearly long enough. Or, I don't get enough noise reduction. I haven't found a happy medium and don't think it's really possible. Personally I don't see the usefulness of those parameters. But my new param idea would be very useful.

 

[rickgk]

I just purchased a super c cheap on ebay, should be here in a week, i'll try that in the loop and let you know how it performs.

 

[senseix]

I just purchased a super c cheap on ebay, should be here in a week, i'll try that in the loop and let you know how it performs.

Hey man, looking forward to hearing your update.

While we wait for that, can any of you that care about upping the noise suppression on the axe go here and vote a yes

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22965


Joe

 

[mrpollack]

I just purchased a super c cheap on ebay, should be here in a week, i'll try that in the loop and let you know how it performs.

Hey man, looking forward to hearing your update.

While we wait for that, can any of you that care about upping the noise suppression on the axe go here and vote a yes

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22965


Joe

I used to use Rocktron Progap Ultra with Hush for many years, and after my first contact with Axe Fx, the main disappointment was a noise reduction.Rocktron uses just one parameter for noise reduction and it works briliant.I wish an Axe has this thing working as nice as HUSH does..

 

[DNW]

Yes, I tried all that. For like 30 minutes. I only have a good rhythm patch with good noise reduction. For lead settings I always get my notes cut off (especially on the highest 2 strings) after only like 5-7 seconds. Not nearly long enough. Or, I don't get enough noise reduction. I haven't found a happy medium and don't think it's really possible. Personally I don't see the usefulness of those parameters. But my new param idea would be very useful.

IMO, any more sustain than that is probably going to be more a product of higher volumes and that output interacting with the guitar. If after however many seconds of sustaining the level of noise is greater than the note, all you can really do is what Cliff suggested to try filter out that noise. But the Axe-FX can only work with what it's being fed, and at some point, unless there's something external further sustaining that note nicely, the note is going to die off.

You're correct Trem, but my main guitar (McNaught) is already shielded properly - my pro guitar tech took care of that, and I still get tons of noise. I don't use CRT monitors either.

Humbuckers or single coils? And err... how good is your tech? Or maybe, how much gain are you playing with? My three main guitars (one wired by me, the other two by techs) are plenty quiet with the Axe (all humbuckers), even on high gain patches. And I disable the gate entirely and don't use any other gate or filtering in my patches. If I use my Tele with single coils is obviously a bit noisy, as is the case with coil splitting on my HB loaded guitars.

Actually, I don't think I've used any kind of noise gate/reducer since the days when my idea of tone was a Metal Zone into a Peavey Bandit. :lol:

 

[jerotas]

Yes, I tried all that. For like 30 minutes. I only have a good rhythm patch with good noise reduction. For lead settings I always get my notes cut off (especially on the highest 2 strings) after only like 5-7 seconds. Not nearly long enough. Or, I don't get enough noise reduction. I haven't found a happy medium and don't think it's really possible. Personally I don't see the usefulness of those parameters. But my new param idea would be very useful.

IMO, any more sustain than that is probably going to be more a product of higher volumes and that output interacting with the guitar. If after however many seconds of sustaining the level of noise is greater than the note, all you can really do is what Cliff suggested to try filter out that noise. But the Axe-FX can only work with what it's being fed, and at some point, unless there's something external further sustaining that note nicely, the note is going to die off.

Understood. Note that we're not talking about ANYWHERE NEAR that much noise. At that point (5-7) seconds, the lead note is still much louder than the noise. However, the point of my big soapbox oratory up there is that the middle position slopes down to the start position much too quickly so there's no way for me to try to have the filter kick in at say 20% envelope. At that point it's already applied a bunch of the filter, altering my tone significantly. My extra "middle position" parameter would enable this to work just like the Hush - properly that is. We think it would anyway. We could probably get a good few seconds or so of lead note with the addition before the noise-killer kicks in. Which would be cool.

You're correct Trem, but my main guitar (McNaught) is already shielded properly - my pro guitar tech took care of that, and I still get tons of noise. I don't use CRT monitors either.

Humbuckers or single coils? And err... how good is your tech? Or maybe, how much gain are you playing with? My three main guitars (one wired by me, the other two by techs) are plenty quiet with the Axe (all humbuckers), even on high gain patches. And I disable the gate entirely and don't use any other gate or filtering in my patches. If I use my Tele with single coils is obviously a bit noisy, as is the case with coil splitting on my HB loaded guitars.

Actually, I don't think I've used any kind of noise gate/reducer since the days when my idea of tone was a Metal Zone into a Peavey Bandit. :lol:

Humbuckers naturally. Single coils (excepting modern noiseless ones) are for people who like noise and/or want to punish themselves IMO. My tech is one of the best in the world - Mike Lull in Seattle. He does Queensrhyche's guitars and all that. Just because I live in China doesn't mean I trust anyone over here to work on my axes. I do not.
I'm not "diming" the gain or anything like that. It's maybe about as much gain as Satch used on his early CD's. You don't hear the noise until you sustain notes too long and it starts to come in. Apparently Joe, me (and some others) think this might be fixable by using Cliff's trick, although I don't think it will work without the extra parameter for lead guitar.
Regardless, it's noise from the amp, not the guitar. If I turn off the gate and don't play anything, the amp is still making some noise / hiss. Even if I turn off the volume of the guitar. Me & Joe both use the absolute best cables, shielding and power conditioners. It's the amp noise, nothing else. Just listen to Joe's comparison clip on page 2. Same riff, same guitar, same cable. Way less noise on the first (Rocktron). Only 1 reason for that - that filter trick on the Rocktron is fully tweakable instead of having 3 settings (start, mid, high).

Yeah I don't use the noise gate either. Because it just doesn't work too well by itself. A noise gate really can't do its job by itself. It needs the Cliff filter trick in conjunction. However that trick needs just one more addition to work well for leads. Hence the poll. Please vote

 

[DNW]

Single coils (excepting modern noiseless ones) are for people who like noise and/or want to punish themselves IMO. My tech is one of the best in the world - Mike Lull in Seattle. He does Queensrhyche's guitars and all that. Just because I live in China doesn't mean I trust anyone over here to work on my axes. I do not.

:lol:


It's hard for me to get my head around what you're talking about when I'm just reading about it. I tried Cliff's filter thing the other night briefly and it seemed to work, but I put no effort into really tweaking it to get the best performance out of it. I'll see if I can get some time tonight to sit down with the filter and envelope so I can get my head around what your problem with it is.

I've never particularly liked the modifier set up in the Axe, but I've always managed to get what I want from it eventually. Strangely (IMO), I liked the set up in my old Boss GT-8 more. I'm sure it could be expanded upon for more functionality, but it was very clear and simple to use. Assigning several different things to happen at different points in the EXP pedal travel for example was a piece of cake, as it was all just 0-127 values. The Axe's modifier screen just does my head in sometimes.

 

[Rex]

Strangely (IMO), I liked the set up in my old Boss GT-8 more. I'm sure it could be expanded upon for more functionality, but it was very clear and simple to use. Assigning several different things to happen at different points in the EXP pedal travel for example was a piece of cake, as it was all just 0-127 values. The Axe's modifier screen just does my head in sometimes.

+1.

Roland/Boss has a nice interface for modifying parameters. It's simple, straightforward and intuitive. It just took a minute with the manual to figure it out. With the Axe, it took a couple of cycles jumping back and forth between different sections of the manual, along with a trip to the WIKI, to know what I was doing. It makes sense to me now, and I love the added versatility that the Axe provides, but IMO, it still takes more mucking about than necessary.

 

[DNW]

Strangely (IMO), I liked the set up in my old Boss GT-8 more. I'm sure it could be expanded upon for more functionality, but it was very clear and simple to use. Assigning several different things to happen at different points in the EXP pedal travel for example was a piece of cake, as it was all just 0-127 values. The Axe's modifier screen just does my head in sometimes.

+1.

Roland/Boss has a nice interface for modifying parameters. It's simple, straightforward and intuitive. It just took a minute with the manual to figure it out. With the Axe, it took a couple of cycles jumping back and forth between different sections of the manual, along with a trip to the WIKI, to know what I was doing. It makes sense to me now, and I love the added versatility that the Axe provides, but IMO, it still takes more mucking about than necessary.

When I got my GT-8, I didn't even really have a manual to work with. I imported mine from Japan when they were first released, before they came out anywhere else, and there wasn't even an english manual to download. I still managed to work it out easily enough.

With the Axe I find myself jumping between the modifier screen and the effect screen, to watch the parameter in question while testing out settings and seeing if I've the control right yet. It's rather trial and error for me, whereas with the GT-8 it was more like, "I want to control this parameter within this range and with this button, or with this section of the EXP pedal's travel... done".

I do accept that I am a bit of a simpleton though. :lol:

 

[Bakerman]

Now if we could get a new modifier parameter called "middle position" that defaults to 50% and can be moved left or right, we could do it - I'd set the middle position to maybe 15% for this scenario, but that's a guess. But there's no way to do that....It seems like that would be a relatively easy thing for Cliff to add.

You can increase envelope gain to basically do the same thing. Gain at 4 will move through the entire curve in 25% of the actual detection range.

 

[jerotas]

Now if we could get a new modifier parameter called "middle position" that defaults to 50% and can be moved left or right, we could do it - I'd set the middle position to maybe 15% for this scenario, but that's a guess. But there's no way to do that....It seems like that would be a relatively easy thing for Cliff to add.

You can increase envelope gain to basically do the same thing. Gain at 4 will move through the entire curve in 25% of the actual detection range.

Bakerman, that's exactly what I'm talking about and needing. I swear I tried all the params and never got a result like your rightmost picture, although I wasn't understanding what some of the params were doing. I'll try it again first thing when I get home and look for that gain param specifically.

If this works...I see no reason for the poll for the new feature. I mean it would be cool, but not a GOTTA HAVE IT thing at that point.

Thanks for your input.

 

[biggness]

Bakerman, that's exactly what I'm talking about and needing. I swear I tried all the params and never got a result like your rightmost picture, although I wasn't understanding what some of the params were doing. I'll try it again first thing when I get home and look for that gain param specifically.

If this works...I see no reason for the poll for the new feature. I mean it would be cool, but not a GOTTA HAVE IT thing at that point.

Thanks for your input.

:lol:

That's why I was asking for your settings earlier to try and help out. haha

Soooo, what about sharing your settings?