Perspective

[shasha]

Inspite of the "proprietary crap" their products work, don't they?

Don't answer it.....I know this is not an Avid forum.

I'm going to answer because I'm not talking about 11R which seems to be what people think I'm referring to (duhh, it's a guitar forum). My bad. 11R is fine; actually seems like a great deal if it fits someone's needs.

I'm talking about the video side; Media Composer, DV Xpress, Interplay, iNews, Airplay, Sundance, Titan, SIDON, Unity, ISIS and a whole slew of other stuff that I've had to work on over the years.

As for it working; well lets just say that they provide plenty of job security for those of us that maintain them. I will never be unemployed and I thank them for providing that service to me. They'll never get a penny of my personal money though.

If you can withstand the cost and being invested in their products almost entirely; yes the stuff does in fact work. Part of the reason for that is because they just refuse to try to work with outside stuff which is kind of the same logic that Apple used for years. People whine about PC's being buggy and stuff; well when you get unlimited numbers of people making programs to run on one system you have unlimited numbers of potential problems. But the AVID stuff isn't perfect either; there's a bit of a koolaid drinker mentallity just like there is with the AxeFX at times. It's human nature.

 

[Marz]

Just to begin with,

Thank you Cliff, I enjoy every minute with the ultra... Hopefully in the not too distant future, the Axe-Fx II may also grace my rack...

Sasha: you da man... didn't they make a movie about you....I think it was called ... Jerry Mcguire?

 

[Popcorn]

A Difference In Perspective

I'm not going to give you a hard time because I really do understand what you're talking about. I'm just going to say a few things that I personally think here and they may be totally inaccurate and you are more than free to think I'm an idiot.

OK, Thanks:mrgreen

The main things that I pick up from your post are:

1. lost value
2. keeping up with latest technology

You forgot the most important one. The feeling of being deceived by a company that put's out an excellent product.

Someone else on another thread said that they contacted the company two weeks before the release of the AxeII and asked them if there were going to be any new products anytime soon and were told flat out NO. That my friend is a deceptive business practice. If they would of said something like "there are some things cooking right now", then he wouldn't of felt like he was lied to, just to get rid of the old product.

That is the whole reason that the new customers are upset. A total lack of respect towards the very people who want your product. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You'll never convince me that lying to your customers is GOOD business.

Popcorn, OUT

 

[LPSlinger]

@Shasha - BRAVO!

 

[Jay Mitchell]

You forgot the most important one. The feeling of being deceived by a company that put's out an excellent product.

You may have that feeling, but that does not mean that deception actually occurred.

Someone else on another thread said....

In other words, you heard it on teh Interwebz. Well, hell, we all know that makes it true, right?

 

[Popcorn]

No Jay, it was right here on this forum that you moderate.

Do you think the way the product was launched was the right way to do it?

If it was would there be so many unhappy customers. I don't think so.

All I know is that I paid over 2000 dollars a couple of weeks ago for a product that I was led to believe is the best and then a couple of weeks later am told that the AxeII is twice as good and that the Ultra is nowhere near it. You can justify anything that you want but if was handled the right way there would not be any hard feelings. I did my research about the product and thought I was buying the best piece from a great company. But now I have a lot of doubts. Sorry but that's the way I feel about it.

 

[JimHunt]

Cliff ... really ... thank you for all you do .... many, many of us think it but don't always say it enough. IMHO ... you have given and given ... most of the time your only reward is knowing the caliber of product you put out has no peers. People need to realize that, just because they bought your product ... does not entitle them to life long product support. Again ... thank you

Jim

 

[Jay Mitchell]

No Jay, it was right here on this forum that you moderate.

Did the people making the allegations offer copies of the emails, including header information? I have seen no such evidence, but I have made it a point not to get involved in the mudslinging here.

Do you think the way the product was launched was the right way to do it?

There is no single "right way" in cases like this. Whether I would have chosen to do it this way is irrelevant. It is not my company.

All I know is that I paid over 2000 dollars a couple of weeks ago for a product that I was led to believe is the best

Why does that matter? Were you happy with your Ultra then?

if was handled the right way there would not be any hard feelings.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. In my experience, there are folks who will whine and bitch about anything, in spite of the fact that it accomplishes nothing.

My philosophy is to purchase the tools that best facilitate the job I want to do with them at the time of purchase. As long as my tools continue to do the job for which I purchased them, they are every bit as valuable as when I bought them. When I discover that a tool imposes a limitation I cannot overcome, I then consider purchasing a replacement. If I allow myself the admittedly unhealthy indulgence of ego-involvement, it is with the results I produce with my tools, rather than with the tools themselves. IOW, it is my belief that the carpenter is far more important than the hammer.

I did my research about the product and thought I was buying the best piece from a great company. But now I have a lot of doubts.

I suggest you do one of the following:

1. Keep your Ultra, use it in the way you intended when you purchased it, and don't worry about whether it is "the best."

2. Sell your Ultra, take the financial hit, and try to buy an Axe-Fx II, keeping in mind that you do not presently have that option.

3. Sell your Ultra, wash your hands of FAS and their "unethical" behavior, and get on with life.

 

[Popcorn]

As someone who makes his living trying to deliver the best sounding product to his clients, being and sounding the best will always matter. If the carpenter is more important than the hammer then explain to me why FAS had to bring a new product to the market.

If it didn't matter then they would of just filled the orders and wouldn't of spent all the R&D money bringing the AxeII to market.

It matters to me that I spend my money wisely and I bought an outdated product that sounds great but will HAVE to be replaced to stay up to date. I'll make my decisions accordingly but to downplay that no warning was given about a new Axe coming to market other than 5,4,3,2,1 too late, wasn't cool for a company that deals with a lot of artists and musicians that don't have a lot of money to spend and would of loved having the hot new piece and not the old has been.

I know you feel like it's your job to defend them, but just put yourself in someone elses shoes for a moment, and gain a little perspective.

 

[MSS]

I've had my Ultra for 2+ years and have been totally happy with it. I will buy an Axe II and will be just as happy, if not more happy with it. Hey, TECHNOLOGY moves on. Companies can't stay in business if they don't move FORWARD. I have no issues at all with Fractal keeping the Axe II secret. Cliff has a lot of other companies to compete with and I'm sure that all of them are going to buy an Axe II and try to reverse engineer it. I think we are all lucky that Cliff didn't sell his company. Competitors buy competitors....

Also, keep in mind that Cliff offered a bunch of B stock items recently at a reduced price....who knows maybe they weren't....

 

[Jay Mitchell]

As someone who makes his living trying to deliver the best sounding product to his clients, being and sounding the best will always matter.

In that context "the best" is always subjective. What you might consider "the best" is one person's opinion only.

If the carpenter is more important than the hammer then explain to me why FAS had to bring a new product to the market.

Uhh, because they aren't carpenters, they make hammers.

If it didn't matter then they would of just filled the orders and wouldn't of spent all the R&D money bringing the AxeII to market.

Irrelevant. You made a purchase decision. If you did so based on ego-driven motivation, perhaps that was not a wise basis for making such a purchase.

It matters to me that I spend my money wisely and I bought an outdated product that sounds great but will HAVE to be replaced to stay up to date.

Right. Like all those tweed Fenders, early Marshalls, Vox AC30s, etc., etc., are so out of date. And then there are all those old guitars. "Waiter, there are snails on her plate.... And get rid of this old wine and bring us some fresh wine."

]I know you feel like it's your job to defend them,

You don't know a damn thing about how I feel. FYI, it's definitely not my job to "defend" FAS.

but just put yourself in someone elses shoes for a moment, and gain a little perspective.

Right back atya on that one. You know your options. Bitching here changes none of them.

 

[levipeto]

Cliff:

"Don't pay any attention to what they write about you. Just measure it in inches." - Andy Warhol

 

[levipeto]

To everyone:

If any of the Axe-fx haven't made you play and/or sound better already, then no Axe-Fx II or III or IV will!
You are going to play and sound just as bad as before!

 

[Popcorn]

In that context "the best" is always subjective. What you might consider "the best" is one person's opinion only.

And that's what I'm expressing MY opinion about a business practice that needlessly created a lot of confusion and ill will.

I never said that The Ultra wasn't a great piece and it used to be until a couple of days ago "The best" all around guitar box ever.
Now it's the Axe II that claims that title, not because of my ego but by FAS own marketing.

Jay, I don't buy ANYTHING because of ego, I buy it for making the best sounds that I can create. Just as you said I don't know anything about how you feel, well right back at you.

This isn't about bitching, it's about trying to get somebody that matters to think about how they handle ALL their customers, not just the ones that agree with them.

You don't know a damn thing about how I feel. FYI, it's definitely not my job to "defend" FAS.

Bitching here changes none of them.

Isn't it funny, I thought a Forum is set-up for the free exchange of ideas and opinions about everything that pertains to the product and your experiences with it. Why do you think that an opinion that is different from your own is inherently wrong? It's not, it's just different.

I lost a lot of money in a very short amount of time because of someones choice that they'd rather keep it secret. If there would of been a clearance sale with the exact same price that I paid then I wouldn't being saying one word, and he wouldn't of spent a lot of the good will for his company. But that was both of our options, I guess.

 

[ventura]

The Fractal Theme comes to cinemas near you!!

Axes of Our Lives
All My Cliffords
Forest Peterson
The Good, The Bad, The Ultra
Mein Fractal
Society Today: Socialist Communism in a Technological Sonic Realm
READ MY LIPS: NO MORE PRODUCTS!!!

Oh, the drama...

Carry on.

If there was a SALUTE icon, I'd most certainly employ it with sarcasm abounding (yawn...).

V.

 

[thepacifist20130]

Levipeto-
This discussion is not about one's playing ability, neither about whether the old or new units would make or not make a difference to one's playing abilities. Please stop assuming that a) we were bad players to start with and b) we buy axe-fx to better our playing skills. I think you are confusing the argument here

Jay-
All the her that you mentioned, if quality, would hold it's value over time. Except the axefx.

'what you mean by best could be one person's opinion only' - I think you are mistakenly pointing fingers without knowing the clientele or the reputation.

From what I see, you haven't made many points to support the product release strategy that was adopted here. All I've noticed are jabs to the skills, reputation of the poster, or stating the obvious fact that axe-fx is a good enough processor, which is not the point of contention.


I'm sorry but many of us fail to see the validity on those points.


Also, from your posts, it looks like you are trying to defend fas, whether it is your job Or not. Why is it that we don't see someone mention 'the users were not informed because...' and end wig something otherthan 'it's cliffs business'

The last I knew, individuals and businesses operated within the framework of a society, providing services in exchange for money. In this framework, it is expected for an individual or business to follow norms and/or standards congruent wih what he is doing - in the case of fas, letting people know they intend to come up with new unit by putting older units on clearance - which is the norm.

Please do not insinuate on irrelevant topics like a players ability when dos ssinf on how a specific product was released. That lquickly degenerates to flaming etc


I would sincerely hope that none of the words posted here echo cliff's sentiment. All I am hoping for is for cliff to exercise his ingenuity in the coming time to keep the gen1 owners engaged.

 

[quonsar]

:roll:roll:roll
I'm getting dizzy from all this eye-rolling.

 

[Sammetal91]

Axes of Our Lives
All My Cliffords
Forest Peterson
The Good, The Bad, The Ultra
Mein Fractal
Society Today: Socialist Communism in a Technological Sonic Realm
READ MY LIPS: NO MORE PRODUCTS!!!

Oh, the drama...

Carry on.

If there was a SALUTE icon, I'd most certainly employ it with sarcasm abounding (yawn...).

V.

:lol keep them rollin!

 

[levipeto]

thepacifist20130:

Yes, there are many problems:
- Customer relation management
- Purchase process (online store, selling overseas)
- Wasting valuable presets in forum (never going to find them, cant search them)
- Beta, buggy Axe-Edit

etc.
You can get all mad about them.

But it is what it is. Can't change it.

You can have your opinion, but until you do it better than FAS, your only option is to accept it or leave it.
I didn't accept the the current state of preset storing so I built one which serves us until Axe-Edit comes out with better version. Whenever it is.
I received a lot of expectation like I was part of FAS, because people got used to that everything should work immediately on all level "like apple" products.
Well, I am not apple, neither FAS.

So, f you know it better, then show it to us, how it suppose to be.

 

[hippietim]

I lost a lot of money in a very short amount of time because of someones choice that they'd rather keep it secret.

How did you lose money?