Perspective

Popcorn said:
And in business the rule is " The Customer Is Always Right" because that's where the cash comes from.
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Actually, the more accurate rule is, "The customer isn't always right, but they are always the customer." Unfortunately, this makes business decisions a lot more complicated.
 
AxelF said:
All Axe-Fxs share the same processor base. So perhaps Fractal Audio could make a poll which includes the most useful software (firmware) features from Axe-Fx II, that reasonably could be implemented in the legacy Axe-Fxs.
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firmware v11.0?:)

think we all need to take a break from the forum.that was a hell of a week.(at least lurk):)it will give us more time to play,that's what it's all about any way,right?
 
It's pretty strange. I plugged into my Ultra after the II announcement and it still sounded kick ass. Truly bizarre, right?

I suppose mine must be special because I keep hearing about all these Ultras that are not up to the task anymore.

My Ultra triumphantly mocks all the other Axe-FXs that have lost their mojo overnight. Eat my crystal echoes.
 
Its truly a feat to make a product that isn't even available yet that will reduce old products to boat anchor status. I would much rather bottle that and sell it than the Axe II. There's money in that.
 
Cliff,

Thanks for making the Axe-Fx II. I ordered my Ultra only 3 months ago and initially I was disappointed, even angered by the announcement with no warning except the 10 day countdown. I psyched myself out about it when I really shouldn't have. After all, I was the one who waited so long to buy my Ultra in the first place. The Axe-Fx II is the best thing for FAS and the best thing for FAS customers. Keep improving the technology for us and I'll keep buying it. Only this time I won't be late to the game. Just tell me there's not an Axe-Fx Ultra II on the way...

...haha, who am I kidding. If there is I'll just upgrade.
 
Everything will eventually be replaced by the "new" model and Cliff is in a no win situation. Some people will be pissed no matter what. I remember waiting until after winter NAMM 2010 to place my order last year, to make sure that II was not on the horizon then. If I had done the same thing this year I would probably be a little more grumpy about it but what can you do? Someones timing will always be unfortunate. I would imagine they would do some sort of deal for folks who have purchased very recently. I would hate to be the customer service folks at Fractal right now.
 
Popcorn said:
When I purchased a Control 24 from Digidesign/Avid they let me know a couple of months before the new C/24 was released and let me make the choice if I wanted to wait for the new one or they'd give me a special discount on the Control 24 that was being phased out. I chose the Control 24 and was totally happy with the purchase. When you share that kind of info with your perspective customers it builds a trust and respect about the company that you're doing business with.
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That's a great story, seriously, no sarcasm.

But having been dealing with AVID since 1992 or 1993 I can tell you that their business model is completely different for one thing. AVID is so steeped into proprietary hardware and software that they will do whatever it takes to get you into their grasp because they know that once you start investing a few bucks into them you are pretty much committed for the long haul. Knock a few bucks off an item that they are replacing doesn't hurt them in the short term because getting anything for old inventory is better than nothing, but they see the long term investment and potential better than any company I've ever dealt with.

Hook you up with a decent price on something and reap the benefits when you start buying more software, more plug-ins, the new hardware that is compatible with all the software and plug-ins you now own; etc, etc...

Fractal on the other hand sells basically one product and once its out the door there is no additional income. AVID even charges for updates to 11R. Sure you've got a smaller initial investment, but why do you think that it comes with ProTools and the editor only works in PT? Because it's like a starter drug; get your fingers in there and they get you hooked.

I have no idea what kind of profit and markup are on the AxeFX's that were sold in the last days, but with a $200 markup for the new system that contains an additional $200 DSP chip I am not thinking that he had a lot of wiggle room to blow out old stock; especially with no long term return. He paid for those to be built under the same business model he had for years; his investment was the same and the product he sold was the same.

A man's gotta eat. AVID on the other hand is probably worth billions of dollars and has share holders and owns m-audio, digidesign and a whole slew of other companies. Hell they just built their Interplay asset manager by buying out some other company because it was easier than writing the code from the ground up. They can afford to cut you a deal; especially when their markup is probably a lot more significant and the long term return is potentially insane.
 
shasha said:
That's a great story, seriously, no sarcasm.

But having been dealing with AVID since 1992 or 1993 I can tell you that their business model is completely different for one thing. AVID is so steeped into proprietary hardware and software that they will do whatever it takes to get you into their grasp because they know that once you start investing a few bucks into them you are pretty much committed for the long haul. Knock a few bucks off an item that they are replacing doesn't hurt them in the short term because getting anything for old inventory is better than nothing, but they see the long term investment and potential better than any company I've ever dealt with.

Hook you up with a decent price on something and reap the benefits when you start buying more software, more plug-ins, the new hardware that is compatible with all the software and plug-ins you now own; etc, etc...

Fractal on the other hand sells basically one product and once its out the door there is no additional income. AVID even charges for updates to 11R. Sure you've got a smaller initial investment, but why do you think that it comes with ProTools and the editor only works in PT? Because it's like a starter drug; get your fingers in there and they get you hooked.

I have no idea what kind of profit and markup are on the AxeFX's that were sold in the last days, but with a $200 markup for the new system that contains an additional $200 DSP chip I am not thinking that he had a lot of wiggle room to blow out old stock; especially with no long term return. He paid for those to be built under the same business model he had for years; his investment was the same and the product he sold was the same.

A man's gotta eat. AVID on the other hand is probably worth billions of dollars and has share holders and owns m-audio, digidesign and a whole slew of other companies. Hell they just built their Interplay asset manager by buying out some other company because it was easier than writing the code from the ground up. They can afford to cut you a deal; especially when their markup is probably a lot more significant and the long term return is potentially insane.
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Shasha,

I can appreciate your sticking up for a smaller businessman like Cliff as opposed to a giant corporation like Avid/Digidesign. But in my way of thinking it's only about an honest and respectable way of doing business small or large, that I have an issue with. Just because someone has a small business does not mean that they should be able to do anything they want and get away with it without the customer that's feeling short changed being told to "just shut-up that's the breaks".

I'm not saying that the product that Cliff sells is not amazing, it is! I'm not saying that he hasn't been good to all his old customers, it sure seems he has. But I bought something a couple weeks ago and lost a substantial amount of value because of a questionable practice, and if it would of said "Clearance Sale" getting ready for the next phase and it would of been the same price I paid. Then I could of made a decision that I would of waited a couple of weeks to get the AXE II.

I'm someone who is always trying to stay up with the latest technology. As a full-time professional for over thirty years I haven't lost money like this ever. Live and learn, I always say. But what have I learned? That some people can't understand what their customers have to go through to try and purchase their products. Of course it's easy to just say &%*$ $#@ but that's not the way a GOOD businessman plays the game of life. One can only hope that a wise man can still learn something. Maybe I'm just dreaming, but that's my job.
 
I'm not going to give you a hard time because I really do understand what you're talking about. I'm just going to say a few things that I personally think here and they may be totally inaccurate and you are more than free to think I'm an idiot.

The main things that I pick up from your post are:

1. lost value
2. keeping up with latest technology

As a professional with 30 years experience you know that both of those go hand in hand. Now granted it doesn't usually happen within a couple of weeks like you've experienced, but everyone that owns one has taken a hit on this. If the AxeFXII came out 6 months ago when I finally broke down and bought mine I am sure that I'd be pretty pissed too. But trying to look at it objectively (which is clearly easier for me) there really isn't a period of ownership that negates the loss in value; if someone has had one for 2 years or 2 days it dropped in value. So when would the cutoff point be for acceptable loss?

I honestly couldn't say "well if you owned it for 2 months than you need to STFU" vs owning it for 3, 4, 5 or 6 months. In both instances the device is exactly the same and provides the same performance regardless of date of purchase. I'm serious here, not trying to be an ass or anything.

Something else to consider and it may not be much of anything, but the AxeFXII is going to be out of stock the second it hits the market which could be in 1-2 weeks time. After that it will be out of stock a lot of other times after that. I know that G66 has a waiting list as of this morning that's in the multi-month range already. Supply and demand has always been a bit of an issue with the AxeFX and I could see it taking some people months to finally get one. My point here is that even though it's been announced it's not available to anyone yet. If he hadn't said anything at all and just let inventory dry up for 3 months and then announced it when he had stock this wouldn't even be a topic worth discussing because none of us would have known. Either way the only thing available is what we've got right now.

Maybe that is warped logic, I don't know.

Here's something else to consider, the depreciation value of the products is merely perceived at this point. I'm pretty sure that you aren't in a hurry to put yours up on e-Bay for $500 anytime soon as I am not either. Once the initial surge of panic dies down there are going to be two people with Ultras; those that are happy with to keep them and those that just bought them for cheap and are planning to keep them. A brand new AxeFXII will cost $2200 which is still a good sized chunk of change for a lot of people; factor in that there isn't a massive volume of these in existence to begin with it's not like there are going to be 100 of these on e-Bay everyday of the week. There will be a hit in price (as happens with anything that's used), but I'd bet that someone would be willing to save $400-800 buying a used AxeFX first generation vs a new AxeFXII. By the time all the freaking out is over by the early adopters and you decide that you need to upgrade you get a few months of use out of it, you sell it for an acceptable loss and who knows there might actually be some AxeFXII's available to buy at that point.

And the last thing I'll add is that while it's not the latest toy coming to the block it still works exactly how it did when you made the decision to buy it. The biggest difference between the new one and yours is that you can play yours right now and enjoy it. The AxeFXII isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
 
shasha said:
In both instances the device is exactly the same and provides the same performance regardless of date of purchase.
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But don't you think that when someone "invested" his money in the product, he expects to get some returns out of it before it becomes obsolete. If I had my ultra for 12 months, I would probably have received the return in terms of "playing the best unit out there" for one year. I agree with you that such a "time limit" is very personal and hard for businesses to take into account - but with Axe-Fx, users mostly bought into it being assured that they had the best unit for "some time".

Objectively, yes - AxeII doesn't change what the standard or Ultra can do, and Im not trying to be an ass either, but their is a subjective aspect of owning the Axe-Fx at play here too.

shasha said:
There will be a hit in price (as happens with anything that's used), but I'd bet that someone would be willing to save $400-800 buying a used AxeFX first generation vs a new AxeFXII. By the time all the freaking out is over by the early adopters and you decide that you need to upgrade you get a few months of use out of it, you sell it for an acceptable loss and who knows there might actually be some AxeFXII's available to buy at that point..
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Exactly.
 
I didnt mean a financial investment, so I think you got me wrong there.
By your logic, nobody should be crying about Avid (other big firms) with proprietary hardware/software since one is being able to use it, even if it becomes obsolete after 2 months. I don't see the point.
 
thepacifist20130 said:
I didnt mean a financial investment, so I think you got me wrong there.
By your logic, nobody should be crying about Avid (other big firms) with proprietary hardware/software since one is being able to use it, even if it becomes obsolete after 2 months. I don't see the point.
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I refuse to give AVID my money because of a lot of reasons. Proprietary crap is definitely near the top of the list.
 
thepacifist20130 said:
Inspite of the "proprietary crap" their products work, don't they?





Don't answer it.....I know this is not an Avid forum.
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As a person who uses pro tools le I like avid but shasha listed his reasons for why he would never go avid and I think all of them were legit. Some hit close to home too but if you want to listen to someone's advice, shasha is one of them. Too bad I hit the point of no return which he more or less talked about. (invested too much into avid, no point in trying something else because of time, money, effort wasted to familiarize with other products and use them properly)
If I put any words into your mouth or misspoke I apologize in ahead shasha. :razz
 
FractalAudio said:
What's killing me is the people threatening to sue me, file a charge-back with their CC issuer, etc. Unbelievable.

And then people implying I should've reduced the price. Like it cost less now to build for some reason (when in fact the costs had risen over 10% this past year).

Total one-way street with a lot of people. Bust my ass to give them the best product I can and they repay me with this BS. Nice.
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Pay 'em no heed. These had to be line-6 users LOL :D

I know one of the reasons I chose fractal over all others and will continue to fly the fractal name high in my camp is BECAUSE of the fact that fractal is professional, quality driven, customer oriented, and shows the BEST goodwill to their customers....more than ANY other company I know. This has resulted in a loyal grass-roots fanbase, and we all support you fractal guys.

I know the axe II has met all my expectations and addressed all my limitations with the ultra, and will be making the move as soon as I have the funds :D
 
I don't disagree with shasha when he says the axeII is a great product and Avid is not.

However, by that very logic of investing to the point of no return, have the people here not invested in the Axe-FX by selling their amps/pedals etc etc, to realize that they bought a product not knowing that a new one was around the corner.

Im guessing going to the point of raising disputes on their credit cards, suing Fractalaudio is BS. They're a company and are out to make a profit, just like any other big or small organization. FAS was always a trusted organization, with Cliff (and his team?) being a part of the community here.
 
thepacifist20130 said:
I don't disagree with shasha when he says the axeII is a great product and Avid is not.

However, by that very logic of investing to the point of no return, have the people here not invested in the Axe-FX by selling their amps/pedals etc etc, to realize that they bought a product not knowing that a new one was around the corner.

Im guessing going to the point of raising disputes on their credit cards, suing Fractalaudio is BS. They're a company and are out to make a profit, just like any other big or small organization. FAS was always a trusted organization, with Cliff (and his team?) being a part of the community here.
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well if you're investing into something It's because you're taking a risk. That's what I've done with Avid, my education, and axe fx. Hell I didn't know there was an axe 2 coming along. I bought my standard almost a month ago at full price. Sure it stings knowing that either i waited with more cash and bought axe 2 or buy an ultra for the same price but I'm happy with the standard. It was a risk I took and I think I'm benefiting. Other people may not see it the same way but that's just my point of view. :)
 
Sammetal91 said:
well if you're investing into something It's because you're taking a risk. That's what I've done with Avid, my education, and axe fx. Hell I didn't know there was an axe 2 coming along. I bought my standard almost a month ago at full price. Sure it stings knowing that either i waited with more cash and bought axe 2 or buy an ultra for the same price but I'm happy with the standard. It was a risk I took and I think I'm benefiting. Other people may not see it the same way but that's just my point of view. :)
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The level of risk is different. It's the same with going to a well known well recommended restaurant vs an unknown startup, the risk of getting bad food is there, but the probability is different.
Anyways, I guess enough has been thrashed on the topic. As my last question, I'd just like to ask you that why is it you feel a sting when you yourself mention that you're happy with the Standard - Is it that had you known about the AxeII, would you have waited and bought the newer model instead? Wouldn't that imply that there is something lacking in the overall "experience" with your standard?
 
thepacifist20130 said:
The level of risk is different. It's the same with going to a well known well recommended restaurant vs an unknown startup, the risk of getting bad food is there, but the probability is different.
Anyways, I guess enough has been thrashed on the topic. As my last question, I'd just like to ask you that why is it you feel a sting when you yourself mention that you're happy with the Standard - Is it that had you known about the AxeII, would you have waited and bought the newer model instead? Wouldn't that imply that there is something lacking in the overall "experience" with your standard?
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The only reason I thought it stung was because I wanted an ultra actually but I didnt have enough money so I went with the standard. I wanted the ultra because I liked the thought of all the extra goodies it got that I could use and also I saw a video where a guy made his guitar sound like a violin!!! And as far as I know, I think only the ultra has that kind of capability with its extra processing power. And the part that stings is that if I had waited about three to four weeks, I could've gotten my ultra for about 100 more than my standard. But hey I don't mind settling with what I got. Now I gotta save up for axe 2 though :)
 
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