Opinions Wanted: Do You Believe Finger Speed Is A Natural Talent?

[la szum]

This thread kind of reads like the ages long nature versus nurture debate.

Cool thread. Insteresting to see the different perspectives on the topic.

I think the real answer is "Maybe." Or is it "It depends?" Not sure.

 

[Tahoebrian5]

Troy is a good guy, however the approach he uses only works for a very small percentage of people and those are usually people who already have good practice habits. This not running where you need to "rev" to build muscle to get you "past" a certain speed.

If you take this approach, it will not stick for long.

Practice in context...

I’m not trying to be argumentIve, am genuinely interested here in your thoughts as a teacher. My question in response to your last post is... do you have any resources/data etc to back up your comment that Troys method only helps a small minority? Would have to factor in probably only a small minority of players even know who he is to start with. My impression reading his forum is it’s helping quite a lot, but maybe those are the only people posting?

I admit I am tending torwards slight fan boy of his because his stuff has helped me tremendously. Not just the start fast idea, but the pick slanting concept and more than anything the way he gets so forensic about it really helped me analyze my own playing. Just last year I realized my right hand picking had a ceiling I couldn’t get past. I was using wrist motion. After doing some tests based on his videos I determined elbow motion is much faster for me. I am finally approaching Gilbert picking speeds after years of practicing wrong. It’s still not as clean as my wrist picking but it’s getting there so I use wrist mostly and switch to elbow when needed. Point is to analyze, and try out different things before you waste too much time trying to work on something that is going to max out lower than where you want to be.

 

[Justincase]

I believe everyone on this planet has something (or even several things) they can excel at. Certain people have an innate, call it a "bent", ability, a propensity to be great at certain things, that others do not. That is not to discount the work that must be put in to attain a level that would be considered "greatness." To say it's all simply hard work is not only ridiculous, it also says we're all the same, and we're obviously not.

Just like when I enrolled my two daughters in gymnastics this year...one took to it like a fish to water ...the other looked more like a fish out of water.

We decided skating was money better spent

 

[Tahoebrian5]

Right I definitely believe some people will take to it easier and go farther. But the OP was mentioning having trouble on moderate speed riffs. I would think just about anybody with the will to put in the time and do the research on technique can get to that level

 

[la szum]

I believe everyone on this planet has something (or even several things) they can excel at. Certain people have an innate, call it a "bent", ability, a propensity to be great at certain things, that others do not. That is not to discount the work that must be put in to attain a level that would be considered "greatness." To say it's all simply hard work is not only ridiculous, it also says we're all the same, and we're obviously not.

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

The notion that everything in life boils down to "putting in the time" is plain ol' ridiculous. That is not me
dismissing hard work and effort either. Just that those things are not the only factors and don't tell a lot
of the story.

This convo is kind of personal for me, and is why I find those notions of "effort" alone being the answer to
be damaging and debilitating to people psychologically and physically. They can conspire to get us to hold
to expectations we may never achieve. Imagine beating yourself up because you are not as skilled as someone
who maybe put in less time than you and has more acuity. It happens.

I had to give up electric guitar when I was 25 after damn near ruining my ability to do anything with my
left hand. I beat myself to death with effort. My hand was constantly numb and tingling. Doc told me what
I was doing with the guitar was putting my long term health and well-being at risk. I was crushed. All I ever
wanted to do was play guitar like those who inspired me, and I worked my ass off at it. I had to give up teaching,
students, bands, and playing. I sold all my guitar gear, and had to resort to 11 years of strumming cowboy
chords on an acoustic.

I only gingerly picked up the electric again in 2004 when I met some guys and started to dabble again with
jamming and bands. I had to tread lightly and watch what I did. A lot of what I wanted to do on guitar I will
never be able to. Repetitive licks and riffs are a big no no for me. Intensive practice with wrist flexion is taboo.
For me.

So maybe I have some kind of odd wrist, or maybe I damaged it with bad technique. I don't know. I do know
that "putting the time in" cost me one of my greatest joys when I was in my prime. It also made me realize that
it wasn't my fate in life to play that way---even if it may be destined for others to do so.

 

[la szum]

I agree those that work harder do get the rewards. What I'm saying is natural talent does exist. There are some things people with natural talent and ability can accomplish that no matter how hard you try or practice are unachievable. For example I could practice a lifetime and never play basketball half as good as Micheal Jordan, throw a ball like nolan ryan, or play as fast as Micheal Angelo Batio. If talent didn't exist there wouldn't be talent scouts.

You'd think this would be utterly obvious... to everyone.

 

[la szum]

Oh and there is no such thing as natural talent.

What about affinity, or propensity? Or anything remotely like those things which make some
of us more suited for some things in life, and others more suited and inclined to other endeavours.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Just like when I enrolled my two daughters in gymnastics this year...one took to it like a fish to water ...the other looked more like a fish out of water.

We decided skating was money better spent

Absolutely! You don't have to be Einstein to see there's such a thing as talent. (wait, he's just like anyone else, so not sure why I chose him to make my point!)

Right I definitely believe some people will take to it easier and go farther. But the OP was mentioning having trouble on moderate speed riffs. I would think just about anybody with the will to put in the time and do the research on technique can get to that level

One thing I didn't mention about the moderate tempo solos I'm having trouble with (the Kansas one, and another is the very first notes to Pat Benatar's Hit Me With Your Best Shot) is because I decided to do those using economy picking, involving sweeps. Those techniques are very new to me, which I think is why they're proving extra difficult. I mean, who starts trying to learn a completely new-to-them technique at 56? I can pretty much get them if I stick to strictly alternate picking.
But this is something that was a take-away for me after watching some of Troy Grady's videos a couple years ago: Analyzing your technique. So my reason for attacking it using economy, was that I figured, with that type of motion, I wouldn't be as limited as with alt-picking, and theoretically, I'd end up being able to play it faster, since it has less directional changes.

 

[Justincase]

This thread kind of reads like the ages long nature versus nurture debate.

Cool thread. Insteresting to see the different perspectives on the topic.

 

[TSJMajesty]

They can conspire to get us to hold to expectations we may never achieve. Imagine beating yourself up because you are not as skilled as someone who maybe put in less time than you and has more acuity. It happens.

That's a fantastic point!!! And part of the reason I asked the question to begin with, because if I've taken my technical abilities as far as they're likely to go, it'd be kind of useful to know that, before I continue putting in the hours. (I'm not yet ready to throw in the towel, but the advances are coming much more slowly than even a year ago.)

 

[la szum]

Talent: n. natural aptitude or skill.
"he possesses more talent than any other player"

It does exist.

Imagine telling a Polar Bear they can be an Alligator if they just work at it harder.

I know.... exaggerated and flawed example. But still, this notion that any human can be
anything they want to make themselves through sheer will and effort is .... uhmmmm......
beyond borderline toxic.

 

[la szum]

Absolutely! You don't have to be Einstein to see there's such a thing as talent. (wait, he's just like anyone else, so not sure why I chose him to make my point!)


One thing I didn't mention about the moderate tempo solos I'm having trouble with (the Kansas one, and another is the very first notes to Pat Benatar's Hit Me With Your Best Shot) is because I decided to do those using economy picking, involving sweeps. Those techniques are very new to me, which I think is why they're proving extra difficult. I mean, who starts trying to learn a completely new-to-them technique at 56? I can pretty much get them if I stick to strictly alternate picking.
But this is something that was a take-away for me after watching some of Troy Grady's videos a couple years ago: Analyzing your technique. So my reason for attacking it using economy, was that I figured, with that type of motion, I wouldn't be as limited as with alt-picking, and theoretically, I'd end up being able to play it faster, since it has less directional changes.

Kudos to you for pushing yourself.

One of the odd things about those different techniques for approaching how
to play faster passages is that whether it is strict alternate picking like Paul Gilbert,
or economy picking, it can be done well with either approach. I am kind of not sure
if one technique approach works better for some, and not others.

Thoughts??

 

[TSJMajesty]

Kinda reminds me of when I took my SAT's. My verbal score sucked. (Thankfully I write better now.) But my math was really high. I remember someone asking me if I was disappointed in my verbal score. I said, hell no! I'm just glad there's a big disparity, so I know what I don't want to pursue. I'd hate to be the kid whose math & verbal were the same!

 

[la szum]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any posts on the value of slow practice. More than one professional guitarist advises playing pieces very slowly and methodically to begin. Just saw an interview with Phil X the other day and he echoed this.

We all want to see those leaps forward in speed, but sometimes you have to take a step back, especially if you detect a flaw in your technique. It hurts the pride to turn the metronome the "wrong" direction, but sometimes that's the thing to do.

Need to start a Tai Chi Guitar Dojo. Sloooooooow dooooooooown.

I'm actually going to embrace playing more slowly. I wonder how deliberate I can
get. I feel I have an aptitude for it, too.

 

[la szum]

It is like this...say you go to type something on your computer and every time you make some keyboard mistake, your file gets saved, even though you edit it to make it correct. Stop, fix, start, mistake, fix, etc, etc. So in the time you type out a paragraph your hard drive saves 20 copies of the file (all the mistakes as well as the completed one). When you go to call the file up from the hard drive memory, your computer chugs way too much because it is not only trying to open the "completed" file but all the others as well and time, time, time, spin, spin, spin, etc until finally the computer either stops responding (quits) or can't complete the task. This is what happens to you when you practice a part incorrectly.

Guitar practice is not a gym activity - no pain no gain, but a memory and recall activity. You have to practice the part in chunks perfectly each time to minimize the issue of the hard drive example of above. But it is not something guitarists like to do, because they want to throw on a bunch of gain and delay and "swag" it through.

Playing fast with flaws means you are practicing your flaws as much as the part you are trying to learn and that is why I hear the stories of "it took me 10 years!" Unless you are playing some concerto written by Villa Lobos or something, an electric shreddy kind of thing shouldn't take that long.

So with alternate picking, if your lines are not clean without the delay then they will be worse with the delay and you will never get them to be "in time" so they sound "tight."

Guys like JP went to Berkley where the emphasis is on "perfect" technique means "perfect" practice. This the same with Di Meola, Mike Stern or even John Mayer - although not a "shredder" but still has really spotless technique for what he plays.

The last thing is many techniques will get to play fast lines - alternate, hybrid, legato, tapping, sweeping, etc. But lots of players figured out they have preference because it makes more sense with the way they interpret "time" and the subdivisions of time. That is why maybe AD or JP use alternate picking and Joe Satriani likes legato more. They all kind play "fast" - clock speed is really irrelevant - you know I can play 16ths at 150 bmp....it is ALL context.

If you set a metronome to 150 bmp and sat your favorite players in a room, who you think can play those lines at 150 bmp, they might not be able to. But if they did so in the context of a song at the same tempo, they could flawlessly. Why? Context.

If you practice the major scale and get it to 150 bmp up and down 16ths and then go play a song at the same tempo you most likely will sound off or maybe sloppy, unless the song has part that sounds like a major scale...lol and that is just an exercise inside a song!

Speed exercises BAD for playing fast in songs!!
Practicing lines/subdivision you hear within the context of a song GOOD for playing fast in songs AND will get you to play faster!

As far as teaching - I do this via zoom and you can shoot me a message if you are interested.

Great post! You broke a lot of things down in a way I have not seen before.

 

[la szum]

I agree with @Andy Eagle , it's a learned skill.

We took the United States Military ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) test before enlistment.

Don't they want to get an idea of what tasks we might best be suited for when we serve??

I know they sure as heck don't want to waste any time (or money!) on trying to force square
pegs into round holes.

When the military acknowledges "aptitude" you know it must be real---even if learned skills
are added onto, and build off of, the aptitude we have when we enlist.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Kudos to you for pushing yourself.

One of the odd things about those different techniques for approaching how
to play faster passages is that whether it is strict alternate picking like Paul Gilbert,
or economy picking, it can be done well with either approach. I am kind of not sure
if one technique approach works better for some, and not others.

Thoughts??

Well, except for a simple, 3-note downward, minor-pattern sweep (like 9-8-7 on strings 3-2-1), I know I'm too old to be learning sweep picking. It takes more control and hand synchronization than any other technique, imo.

Re economy picking, which I'll define as continuing a downward stroke to an adjacent string, then resuming alt-picking, because it sets up the next part of the lick to be played, easier for you..., I can sort of see how players who use this method maybe just discovered it by accident, because it was more natural-feeling, as opposed to say, analyzing a particular lick, along with each and every possible stroke combination, and they just went with it. Then they used it in more and more licks. And what may then feel quite natural to them, could be really difficult for someone else to learn that way.

Like, I have some pretty cool-sounding, super fast licks of my own, that I never really "practiced." They just sort of appeared. So yeah, certain ways of playing can be real easy for one person, but damn near impossible for another to learn. Which I guess is why we say "tone is in the fingers." Copping a Jimmy Page lick may seem technically easier, than say, one of Petrucci's. But to really play it with all his nuances can be much harder than it seems.

So I'd certainly say some techniques are easier for some people, and harder for others. Like I mentioned in the OP, the other guitar player in my first band could cop that Jimmy Page loose technique like he wrote the shit! But me? I learned from studying Caprices, so my playing was more strict, so I just couldn't cop that sort of playing style.

 

[Justincase]

Then I wonder why the United States Military has us all take the ASVAB
(Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) test before enlistment??

Don't they want to get an idea of what tasks we might best be suited for when we serve??

I know they sure as heck don't want to waste any time (or money!) on trying to force square
pegs into round holes.

I literally turned my sheet sideways and made a design with the circles you fill in. Those fuckers inundated my mailbox for years trying to get me to join....was not the effect I was hoping for

 

[Stratman68]

There is no age limit on this other than maybe a physical issue of some sort.

Yes that would be me-arthritis..............

 

[Roland]

Some people might be predisposed to playing quickly. This is partly the way their muscles and skeleton move, and partly how their brains control movements. If you wish you can call this talent. I just think of it as a head start. Over time your physical and mental abilities develop (or decline) based on usage. Some may have a predisposition for learning. You can call that talent too if you wish. Eventually those who put time and energy into development are likely to overtake those who had a head start, but didn‘t use it.

Practicing a particular technique will get you so far, but there are times when a new physical technique is needed to go further. Crawling, walking and running come to mind. Mental techniques change too. When we learn a new language in school we start with nouns and grammar. If we learn the same language through conversation then we learn whole phrases which give a desired effect. “Two pints please” will get you a drink, even if you don’t know what the individual words mean. With playing we learn phrases. When I first learned to play a trill I put a lot of attention into moving two fingers on and off the strings, and synchronising them with my plectrum. Nowadays my brain says “trill” and without further conscious thought hammer-ons and pull-offs and entry and exit notes happen.

So to the OP I would say it’s not that you haven’t got the talent to play faster. It might just be that the technique you’re using, the way you‘re using it, or the way you’re thinking about it, won’t let you play any faster.

Having said all that, I don’t actually want to play any faster.