Opinions Wanted: Do You Believe Finger Speed Is A Natural Talent?

I'm pretty sure I do this. For example, one of the things I'm working on is the intro riff to Never Enough by Dream Theater. Since it bounces between fretted notes and the open D string (song's in D standard), on 5 of the 8 beats, that open D falls on the downbeat, which is hard for me to "feel it" on the beat. So I'll play it as slow as I need to, so I can feel each one of those downbeats, before speeding it up. As soon as I lose that beat, I back it back down. I find it much easier to feel a downbeat that falls on a fretted note, so it's a challenging riff. Every now and again I get it about 90% up to speed, and I'm like, YES!!

I don't understand what you mean.

How? Like, video lessons?
It is like this...say you go to type something on your computer and every time you make some keyboard mistake, your file gets saved, even though you edit it to make it correct. Stop, fix, start, mistake, fix, etc, etc. So in the time you type out a paragraph your hard drive saves 20 copies of the file (all the mistakes as well as the completed one). When you go to call the file up from the hard drive memory, your computer chugs way too much because it is not only trying to open the "completed" file but all the others as well and time, time, time, spin, spin, spin, etc until finally the computer either stops responding (quits) or can't complete the task. This is what happens to you when you practice a part incorrectly.

Guitar practice is not a gym activity - no pain no gain, but a memory and recall activity. You have to practice the part in chunks perfectly each time to minimize the issue of the hard drive example of above. But it is not something guitarists like to do, because they want to throw on a bunch of gain and delay and "swag" it through.

Playing fast with flaws means you are practicing your flaws as much as the part you are trying to learn and that is why I hear the stories of "it took me 10 years!" Unless you are playing some concerto written by Villa Lobos or something, an electric shreddy kind of thing shouldn't take that long.

So with alternate picking, if your lines are not clean without the delay then they will be worse with the delay and you will never get them to be "in time" so they sound "tight."

Guys like JP went to Berkley where the emphasis is on "perfect" technique means "perfect" practice. This the same with Di Meola, Mike Stern or even John Mayer - although not a "shredder" but still has really spotless technique for what he plays.

The last thing is many techniques will get to play fast lines - alternate, hybrid, legato, tapping, sweeping, etc. But lots of players figured out they have preference because it makes more sense with the way they interpret "time" and the subdivisions of time. That is why maybe AD or JP use alternate picking and Joe Satriani likes legato more. They all kind play "fast" - clock speed is really irrelevant - you know I can play 16ths at 150 bmp....it is ALL context.

If you set a metronome to 150 bmp and sat your favorite players in a room, who you think can play those lines at 150 bmp, they might not be able to. But if they did so in the context of a song at the same tempo, they could flawlessly. Why? Context.

If you practice the major scale and get it to 150 bmp up and down 16ths and then go play a song at the same tempo you most likely will sound off or maybe sloppy, unless the song has part that sounds like a major scale...lol and that is just an exercise inside a song!

Speed exercises BAD for playing fast in songs!!
Practicing lines/subdivision you hear within the context of a song GOOD for playing fast in songs AND will get you to play faster!

As far as teaching - I do this via zoom and you can shoot me a message if you are interested.
 
If you believe it is an inheritable aptitude their would be far more virtuoso families and there just aren't . Prodigy is the result of good learning practices and a personal obsession than results in a virtuous circle now add perfect pitch (see Rick Beato's video on the subject) and starting very young . Also consider that every human baby teaches themselves how to talk/walk ,interact with the world. If during the plastic brain stage of learning you tack on a musical instrument the sky is the limit. And talent had nothing to do with it.
 
Remember musical intelligence is the same as intelligence. It's just "some" people see the pathway and others can't access that pathway as easy for whatever reason. Brain development and access is a really complex thing. This is why Pat Martino did what he did and then did it again after brain surgery.

In Mozart's time, and with the level of intelligence he had, and some of other learning issues he also had, there existed a really profound environment for him to access that pathway, easily. That, and his hard work made it possible to do what he did.

In today's world, it may have been different for him....
 
I know and I understand what you are saying. I just believe their are gifted musicians and I am grateful for that. It's all good.
Gifted with what exactly and from where? Not born with any defects or physical limitations and maybe even the odd lucky evolutionary fluke advantage in physicality you could call "talent." But I find the word an insult to those that dedicated their lives to a skill and a convenient excuse for the rest of us to explain our shortcomings.
 
Remember musical intelligence is the same as intelligence. It's just "some" people see the pathway and others can't access that pathway as easy for whatever reason. Brain development and access is a really complex thing. This is why Pat Martino did what he did and then did it again after brain surgery.

In Mozart's time, and with the level of intelligence he had, and some of other learning issues he also had, there existed a really profound environment for him to access that pathway, easily. That, and his hard work made it possible to do what he did.

In today's world, it may have been different for him....
I suppose you could say that "talent" is just the full realisation of potential at the most opportune time in a persons life and therefore fully realised.
 
I suppose you could say that "talent" is just the full realisation of potential at the most opportune time in a persons life and therefore fully realised.
Andy, to deny their are people with inherent, exceptional talent, is really ridiculous. Sorry. Basically you are saying any idiot could have been Hendrix or Chopin if they put their mind to it. I do not believe so but this is a discussion that no one can prove one way or the other. So,?
 
@Andy Eagle . Andy I do understand your point(s). Believe me. Here , I beleive is a perfect example of your side of the discussion-PRACTICE and DEDICATION. I admire this young lady but I do not believe she was born with any special talent-. She played classical everyday as a very young child. She is 17 in this video I think.

 
@Andy Eagle . Andy I do understand your point(s). Believe me. Here , I beleive is a perfect example of your side of the discussion-PRACTICE and DEDICATION. I admire this young lady but I do not believe she was born with any special talent-. She played classical everyday as a very young child. She is 17 in this video I think.


The backingtrack itself is absolutely amazing..
 
Andy, to deny their are people with inherent, exceptional talent, is really ridiculous. Sorry. Basically you are saying any idiot could have been Hendrix or Chopin if they put their mind to it. I do not believe so but this is a discussion that no one can prove one way or the other. So,?
I am saying that the people who you say to be exceptional talents did exactly that at a very young age with very good tuition and as much as I like Hendrix I wouldn't even call him a virtuoso player . Nothing he played could not be played by any dedicated average player . Hendrix's skill was his personality with which he wrote his songs.
 
the whole practice slow until it’s perfect then gradually increase the speed is the traditional way but there seems to be some evidence that it is not always effective, and never has helped me much. Troy Gradys method is the opposite. Get your muscles moving up to speed first, then concentrate on the hiccups and work on fixing them. Somewhat similar to the “rev” method where you play a repeating lick as fast as you can while keeping it clean (without a metronom), then occasionally rev the speed past your comfort zone. For me this has been way more effective than trying to build speed slowly.

the idea is even if you are playing clean slowly, you might be using a technique that is not suited for speed. Play fast and sloppy, figure out what motions work at that speed, then try to figure out what you need to do to clean it up. This might entail slowing back down but you gotta go fast first to determine the correct motions. Anyway this is just a rough summary.. troy goes into painstaking detail and is required viewing imo if you are working your technique.
 
the whole practice slow until it’s perfect then gradually increase the speed is the traditional way but there seems to be some evidence that it is not always effective, and never has helped me much. Troy Gradys method is the opposite. Get your muscles moving up to speed first, then concentrate on the hiccups and work on fixing them. Somewhat similar to the “rev” method where you play a repeating lick as fast as you can while keeping it clean (without a metronom), then occasionally rev the speed past your comfort zone. For me this has been way more effective than trying to build speed slowly.

the idea is even if you are playing clean slowly, you might be using a technique that is not suited for speed. Play fast and sloppy, figure out what motions work at that speed, then try to figure out what you need to do to clean it up. This might entail slowing back down but you gotta go fast first to determine the correct motions. Anyway this is just a rough summary.. troy goes into painstaking detail and is required viewing imo if you are working your technique.
I’ve read or seen Shawn Lane said the same thing.
 
I have also read more than once that if you do not develop that "speed thing" in your learning years you never will.
I believe I am a perfect example of that. Sure I can pay some fast stuff, but not like I want to. My own fault for not trying to develop it earlier.
 
I have also read more than once that if you do not develop that "speed thing" in your learning years you never will.
I believe I am a perfect example of that. Sure I can pay some fast stuff, but not like I want to. My own fault for not trying to develop it earlier.
There is no age limit on this other than maybe a physical issue of some sort.
 
Troy is a good guy, however the approach he uses only works for a very small percentage of people and those are usually people who already have good practice habits. This not running where you need to "rev" to build muscle to get you "past" a certain speed.

If you take this approach, it will not stick for long.

Practice in context...
 
I believe everyone on this planet has something (or even several things) they can excel at. Certain people have an innate, call it a "bent", ability, a propensity to be great at certain things, that others do not. That is not to discount the work that must be put in to attain a level that would be considered "greatness." To say it's all simply hard work is not only ridiculous, it also says we're all the same, and we're obviously not.
 
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