Opinions Wanted: Do You Believe Finger Speed Is A Natural Talent?

TSJMajesty

Fractal Fanatic
TL, DR: I wonder if we each have a built-in speed limit in our fingers, that no amount of practice can overcome. Agree/disagree?

Some background: I've struggled with speed since I played Clarinet in school. I made 1st chair, 1st Clarinet in the Junior High MD All-State Band, so I was a pretty good player. But it was mainly my tone, and not my technical ability, or speed, that got me that position. I used to marvel at other players in these large bands who were literally smoking me.

I switched to guitar when I was 15, but it's not something new. I've struggled with the same thing on guitar. It just seems to take me forever to make gains in my speed. And I'm not talking about wanting to "shred." I mean, I'd like to be able to confidently, consistently, play, for example, the solos in Carry On Wayward Son, but I still struggle to get that 1st solo up to speed. I can play it, but when I push to make it happen, it gets sloppy.

OTOH, I can play fast 3-note-per-string, 16th note triplet runs, at about 90 bpm, cleanly. But I've probably played that famous Paul Gilbert lick 5000 times in order to do so. I swear I just have a built-in speed limit.

I watched Joe Bonamassa rip through a tasty blues lick during a rig-rundown, and I was like, DAMN! That was just some Pentatonic stuff he did, but it sounded astounding! It was probably 16th notes at around 140 bpm. I wanna do that! I know about hitting a wall, and then suddenly you break through, somewhat, as I've experienced this myself.

When I got really serious in developing my technique about 3 years ago, I couldn't consistently play hardly any 16th note riffs beyond 90. Now I can do certain ones around 130. But OMG, the work it takes! My trilling speed is pathetic!

The triplet run in Good Times Bad Times is another one. My other guitar player, back in my high school days could RIP this solo, like, effortlessly. I just stayed away from that stuff, instead taking on the Pink Floyd solos.

I know I'm not gonna be able to play like Paul Gilbert or John Petrucci, especially since I didn't have this dedication to practice that I now have, back when my brain was much more malleable as a teen. But I still love to play their stuff. I'm just thinking that I've hit my own personal speed limit, which seems to be about 120 bpm for 16th note riffs, and around 90 for 16th triplets. Most rock songs with cool solos are just faster than that.

Am I wrong in this thinking? What do you think? I can't run fast. Never could. Could it be possible some of us just don't possess those "fast-twitch" muscles I've read about, and no matter how many hours you invest, you're only going to be able to play at a certain speed, and no further?
 
My inner old man (and outer!) is screaming "Oh hell yes it is!" :)

Kind of like running the 100M (as you implied). You can train for it,
and make improvements, but that may not get you into the Olympics
or EVER be at the world-class level.

I also believe it takes constant and repetitive training to maintain. It's a form
of athletics.

Signed,
A Never Was Shredder ;)
 
TL, DR: I wonder if we each have a built-in speed limit in our fingers, that no amount of practice can overcome. Agree/disagree?

Some background: I've struggled with speed since I played Clarinet in school. I made 1st chair, 1st Clarinet in the Junior High MD All-State Band, so I was a pretty good player. But it was mainly my tone, and not my technical ability, or speed, that got me that position. I used to marvel at other players in these large bands who were literally smoking me.

I switched to guitar when I was 15, but it's not something new. I've struggled with the same thing on guitar. It just seems to take me forever to make gains in my speed. And I'm not talking about wanting to "shred." I mean, I'd like to be able to confidently, consistently, play, for example, the solos in Carry On Wayward Son, but I still struggle to get that 1st solo up to speed. I can play it, but when I push to make it happen, it gets sloppy.

OTOH, I can play fast 3-note-per-string, 16th note triplet runs, at about 90 bpm, cleanly. But I've probably played that famous Paul Gilbert lick 5000 times in order to do so. I swear I just have a built-in speed limit.

I watched Joe Bonamassa rip through a tasty blues lick during a rig-rundown, and I was like, DAMN! That was just some Pentatonic stuff he did, but it sounded astounding! It was probably 16th notes at around 140 bpm. I wanna do that! I know about hitting a wall, and then suddenly you break through, somewhat, as I've experienced this myself.

When I got really serious in developing my technique about 3 years ago, I couldn't consistently play hardly any 16th note riffs beyond 90. Now I can do certain ones around 130. But OMG, the work it takes! My trilling speed is pathetic!

The triplet run in Good Times Bad Times is another one. My other guitar player, back in my high school days could RIP this solo, like, effortlessly. I just stayed away from that stuff, instead taking on the Pink Floyd solos.

I know I'm not gonna be able to play like Paul Gilbert or John Petrucci, especially since I didn't have this dedication to practice that I now have, back when my brain was much more malleable as a teen. But I still love to play their stuff. I'm just thinking that I've hit my own personal speed limit, which seems to be about 120 bpm for 16th note riffs, and around 90 for 16th triplets. Most rock songs with cool solos are just faster than that.

Am I wrong in this thinking? What do you think? I can't run fast. Never could. Could it be possible some of us just don't possess those "fast-twitch" muscles I've read about, and no matter how many hours you invest, you're only going to be able to play at a certain speed, and no further?
Can you play a quick blast of 16th notes, three notes on a single string, at say 190bpm, at least once?

If your answer is yes, then you can technically play a three note per string run at 190bpm across the fretboard, IF you can master the string skipping, stamina, and cleanliness.

I think many are capable of shredding like the big dogs. It's just knowing how to get there. My best advice I can give is: breaking down groups of notes into chunks that your brain can keep up with is the key.
 
Some of us have to work harder than others to achieve half the ability. Just like there are natural born athletes. I spent years working on speed licks only to outgrow the pursuit of shred. A few well placed notes and catchy phrases trump blazing fast runs 9 times out of 10 imo. Those of us that have spent decades working with our hands also have to deal with the effects of years of abuse. I feel it in my wrists most of all.
 
Just something to consider.

Simply turning the metronome up incrementally while playing isn't the best way to gain speed. It'll work to a certain point, but the fact is the mechanics are completely different once you get to faster speeds. It's different muscle groups, different amplitude of movement, etc. The same scale played at 80 BPM vs 140 BPM is not just played faster, it's played differently.

So if you find you reach a point on the metronome where you just can't go any faster, it's not necessarily that you've found your personal limit, just the limit of the mechanics you're using. That's when you start needing to analyze what muscles are getting tense or fatigued too quickly, etc...and there are loads of different exercises out there for that kinda thing.

As an aside, which hand do you feel is limiting your speed more?
 
Can you play a quick blast of 16th notes, three notes on a single string, at say 190bpm, at least once?
No. My 16th note limit (just picking one string) is 165. But I appreciate your comment. That helps me understand it better.
My blast of 3 different notes on one string is probably at 150.
 
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Just something to consider.

Simply turning the metronome up incrementally while playing isn't the best way to gain speed. It'll work to a certain point, but the fact is the mechanics are completely different once you get to faster speeds. It's different muscle groups, different amplitude of movement, etc. The same scale played at 80 BPM vs 140 BPM is not just played faster, it's played differently.

So if you find you reach a point on the metronome where you just can't go any faster, it's not necessarily that you've found your personal limit, just the limit of the mechanics you're using. That's when you start needing to analyze what muscles are getting tense or fatigued too quickly, etc...and there are loads of different exercises out there for that kinda thing.

As an aside, which hand do you feel is limiting your speed more?
Yeah, I watched a Bernth video in which he said in order to run, you don't simply walk faster. So I've been paying attention to this as well.
I'd say it's my left hand. And I see when JP does his blazing, 16th-note triplet runs, he pulls his fingers in from where he usually rests them on the guitar, and his mechanics change. But I'm nowhere near doing this yet. But I do recognize it.
Well said, Justin. A great melody is seldom blazing fast. :)

I applaud cats like Yngwie, but I'd take 10 David Gilmours over
half an Yngwie.
COMPLETELY agree! But what I'm trying to do at this point, is developing my technical abilities, more so than learning Yngwie solos, so I can use that as a "tool box" of sorts, to be able to play some cool, fast licks, within the context of a good-sounding solo. And there are solos that I just want to be able to play, note-for-note.

For example, Yngwie has this "note-pivoting" I believe its called, lick in the beginning of the solo in I'll See You In The Light Tonight that really works the pinky. I identified that particular lick because I felt it would be good in helping bring up a weak point in my left-hand ability, into line with what my other fingers can do.
 
No. My 16th note limit (just picking one string) is 165. But I appreciate your comment. That helps me understand it better.
There’s a threshold where your ears (brain) won’t be able to track each note at a certain BPM. That’s where your brain will start to focus on “chunks” rather than individual notes. For me, a “chunk” can be three notes on a string.
 
Here’s a great conversation on this:

Thanks for that! I've heard Ben Eller also talk about the chunks, and I've also watched videos in which guys recommend purposely playing faster than you can play the lick cleanly. But I've also watched guitarists say they won't bump up the metronome until they can play the lick 5 times in a row, cleanly.

I try to do both. I do notice speed improvements when I push my speed into "sloppy" territory, but I'll also roll the speed back down, in order to improve the accuracy. I don't believe, or at least I don't see it in my own practice sessions, that you can clean up a sloppy riff by continuing to play it faster than you can play it cleanly.

I guess I'm mainly asking for advice/opinions because, yeah, Dream Theater is my favorite band, and John Petrucci is the guitar god so many of us are inspired by, so yeah, I'd very much like to be able to play a couple of their songs.

2 that come to mind that I feel are attainable, are Peruvian Skies, and Wither. I just about have the fast run in PS, but even in Wither, he has this blazing fast, 16th-note triplet lick, at the end, which is SO EFFIN HARD, especially due to the fact that he hits only one note on the adjacent string, which means screw thinking about downward/upward pick slant, because how the hell can you even change the pick slant angle that fast? I think those kinds of licks are some of THE hardest to master. He does the same type lick in Pull Me Under.
 
Yeah, I watched a Bernth video in which he said in order to run, you don't simply walk faster. So I've been paying attention to this as well.
I'd say it's my left hand. And I see when JP does his blazing, 16th-note triplet runs, he pulls his fingers in from where he usually rests them on the guitar, and his mechanics change. But I'm nowhere near doing this yet. But I do recognize it.

COMPLETELY agree! But what I'm trying to do at this point, is developing my technical abilities, more so than learning Yngwie solos, so I can use that as a "tool box" of sorts, to be able to play some cool, fast licks, within the context of a good-sounding solo. And there are solos that I just want to be able to play, note-for-note.

For example, Yngwie has this "note-pivoting" I believe its called, lick in the beginning of the solo in I'll See You In The Light Tonight that really works the pinky. I identified that particular lick because I felt it would be good in helping bring up a weak point in my left-hand ability, into line with what my other fingers can do.

I know precisely what lick you are referring to. :)
 
I know precisely what lick you are referring to. :)
It'll give your pinky a workout! I knew that finger needed work, but I hate just practicing mindless patterns, which is why I look to solos that have certain types of licks in them instead. (Which is a big reason I gravitate to JP's stuff, since he has so much to draw from!)
 
I'd never heard that style of lick until Yngwie---which is not something you can say about many
guitar players. Even if he may have stole it from violinists and applied it to guitar.
 
I'd never heard that style of lick until Yngwie---which is not something you can say about many
guitar players. Even if he may have stole it from violinists and applied it to guitar.
Even though he's not really my cup of tea so to speak (my limit at G3 was his first 3 songs), you know it's him when he plays.
 
I spent years trying to shred. I struggled to play 16th note scales at 80bpm. Somebody recommended the Troy Stetina Speed Mechanics book (which is really good, btw) and I went down the rabbit hole. I eventually got to the point where I could play 16ths at 120, maybe 132 on a really good day. But nowhere near the level of shred I was aiming for. I'd also somehow gotten it into my heard that every note had to be picked, but that's not at all how my heroes (Van Halen, Vai etc) played.
I suspect for me the problem was that my hands weren't sufficiently relaxed.There'd be fleeting moments were it felt like my hands were flying across the fretboard, almost hardly touching it, and the speed would be amazing. But I was never able to do it for long or consistently.
These days I've stopped trying to do that, and am instead focussing on harmony and melodic improvisation. I'm having lots more fun and my family are no longer thinking of calling an intervention.
 
No I think it is all a learned skill and the earlier you get a good teacher the better . Also how many of us actually just practice the things that we can't do when we practice? Most people don't progress because they don't do the things they need to.
You need Troy Grady's YouTube channel . Troy covers this exact topic in one video.
troygrady
This will fix it but it's up to you.
 
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