Not enjoying Matrix....Mesa 20/20?

K

kippiejr

Inspired
Anybody have any luck with Mesa 20/20

Trying to build a light weight option. Tried the Q12A and Q12 with GT1000FX---Cleans are great---High gain stuff to mid rangey---I really do not want to start tweaking for hours again and again to get it right because----

When I go AFX II into fx return into my Mark V and into 4 x 12 recto cab awesome.......

Or Engl SE 670 into its cab or.................

Mesa 2:90 triaxis rack into recto 4 x 12........all awesome

What I have tried.......... Yamaha 10" monitors.... Q12A and Q12.......FOH stuff in small and large venues....... GT1000FX into all the above mentioned cabs............Rocktron Velocity 300..into all the above mentioned....TMA's which are great but still need to bring the tube head to make them sound how I like..so if i am bring the head? why AFX....

On waiting list for CLR....
Tried hundreds of presets, amps, cab sims off, cab sims on, amp sims on/off,

Don't get me wrong, a lot of the AFX with above mentioned sounds good and the cleans are great, but high gain stuff does not sound better than the tube stuff head and cabs...

Reality--I think I am a tube guy and cant help it...If I sold all my heads then I would be OK with the AFX sounds....But knowing I have better already and trying to copy it just to go light weight is makes me crazy................

Anybody else?
 
The Mesa 20/20 imparts an EL84 sonic foot print so if you like that sound or tone on all of your amp sims then it might be a good combination for you.
 
I had a 20/20 long ago. Lots of midrange but with too little bottom end for my taste. It isn't that light either.
 
For sure...Like I mentioned they sound close.... But using the tube amp of the head is needed for tonal awesomeness.............

As long as I have those darn "originals" it makes no scense bringing the "clone."

The 4 space power conidtioner, AFX and Matrix 1000 weights about the same as the Mark V head.... The cab is something that is nuetral to both and NEEDED...

I use to own a 20/20 and added the "FAT MOD" and thinking that might be worth a try....

They AFX II cleans, crunch and low to mid drive stuff is awesome. I can't get it to reach the overdriven tube warmth of one of the above mentioned rigs..

Again, If I did not already have the original, I would think the clone (AFX II) was the shit....

I might be wrong but Petrucci and Lifeson use the AXFII as an effect only application?
 
Hi, I've been thinking about using the 20/20 myself, but I'd want to do the "Deep" mod on it first, and as rickboot points out, it's not that light. The "Deep" mod looks easy enough to do, and easy to make switchable.
 
The 20/20 is about 20 lbs. The deep mod didn't exist when I had mine so I never tried it. I ended up buying a VHT 2/50/2 which sounds and feels fantastic. However it is 2u and about 37 pounds so it sits in a home rack unused and unloved.
 
kippiejr said:
I might be wrong but Petrucci and Lifeson use the AXFII as an effect only application?
Click to expand...

I know Petrucci uses it that way, and only very lightly. He has a whole bunch of pedals in front of his Mark V heads, goes out to the AFII for some verb and delay and then goes out to mic'd 4x12s.

I use a similar set-up, only LR scale! I have an Eventide Modfactor in front of my ULTRA. I have a few things in my ULTRA before going to my TRIAXIS via FXL then back in for a few more things, then out to an Eventide Timefactor and then onward to MB Stereo 2:90 and out to a MB 1x12" Recto and a MB 1x12 3/4 open back... I use the MFC to control a whole bunch of custom patches. I have ten IAs that switch the TRIAXIS tones. I just loooove the DEEP sound with a MKIIc lead tone... Yowza! One of these days I gotta try a pair of 4x12 cabs!!!! ;-)
 
I've never run a 20/20 but I did have a 50/50 for a while and it worked great with the Axe II (ran i out to my Recto 2X12's)
 
kippiejr said:
....but high gain stuff does not sound better than the tube stuff head and cabs...

Reality--I think I am a tube guy and cant help it...If I sold all my heads then I would be OK with the AFX sounds....But knowing I have better already and trying to copy it just to go light weight is makes me crazy................

Anybody else?
Click to expand...
I was with you 100% of the way on this notion, until the CLRs came into the picture. I am a high-gain kinda guy, djenty and all... Diezels, Makos, Bogners, Fryettes, etc. I love rabid seething hot tube driven monstrous gain-full tone. I still own all my tube heads, and a plethora of cabs. Since the CLRs showed up, I think it's been 90% AFX, 10% analog. And for the record, the simplest of simple presets (the Recto-Red) was dialed in as a tester, and it blew my socks off. I think you'll be quite surprised. Of course, this is all IMHO and YMMV...but give those wait-listed CLRs a shot - and get the actives if you can - simplifies everything.

Good Luck,
Mo
 
kmanick said:
I've never run a 20/20 but I did have a 50/50 for a while and it worked great with the Axe II (ran i out to my Recto 2X12's)
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YUP.............I can make the AFX sound incredible..... just not without a TUBE AMP!!!!!!!!!!!! darn it.. The 20/20 is the smallest 1U I can think of...That might work...

I mean take a good preset into the GT1000FX and out to Q12 and its good............

Take same preset into a fx return of a tube head or tube power amp and...............the clouds part............

Idea... There is got to be a tube powered all in one 1 x 12 like the Q12A.... right? I know there is..who makes it.....shoot,,,
 
The 20/20 has to be the worst sounding tube power amp I've ever tried. 2/90 is great. 50/50 is great. 20/20, not so much.
 
I have never used a 20/20 or 50/50 but I can attest the 2:90 sounds great with the Axe but it's *&@^$)(*_!#!$% heavy!
 
FractalAudio said:
The 20/20 has to be the worst sounding tube power amp I've ever tried. 2/90 is great. 50/50 is great. 20/20, not so much.
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C'mon now, don't sugar coat it Cliff.

Honestly, if it is EL84 based, then it is not meant to convey "the most awesomest Marshall/Bogner/Mesa/Uber sound ever"....it is meant to convey a "vox, small combo, boutique" sound. So, it is probably not the right choice for the OP to use. Not the right tool for the job.

And, I think that we are losing sight of the a few things: Lifeson and those guys haven't lifted a tube amp themselves, since they were 18. They have "people". They can bring whatever they want, and they can tell us they are using it however they choose to tell us. There are so many routing options, who could know for sure?

Furthermore, the AxeFX2 is a reasonable facsimile of 1,000 different sounds, but maybe not as good as the original, but so much of our opinions of which sounds better has a lot to do with what you are used to, and the feeling of your cabinet resonating and shaking and moving serious air around you. If you put your cabinets in an isolated room, 100 feet from the stage, and used in-ear monitors, your perception of that sound vs, the Axe FX would be a much closer comparison, and then you'd have to decide if you like having 2-3 basic, awesome sounds to do a gig, or the ability and flexibility of 10,000 sounds? Next, what is the audience's perception of your sound, if your cabinet is in a back hallway or closet, or dog house and mic'd, verses the Axe Fx? And perhaps the biggest one, what is the audience's perception of your sound and that of your band, when they are on the one hand, getting blasted from your real cabinet, and the directionality of the guitar sound coming from the stage, but the rest of the mix coming from the PA, versus how their experience would be if all the sound was coming only from the PA in a intelligible mix? I think the AXE wins in practicality, simplicity, flexibility, and provides the cleanest overall band mix through the mains if you are going direct.

I am really baffled that people would run the Axe without the benefit and flexibility of so many cabinet choices. But I guess folks get into a genre and that sound is the only sound they need, and if it ain't broke...

I just watched Scott Peterson's Axe West video and his idea of putting a looper in the chain so you can substitute cabinets and A/B them until you find the best match - a great idea that I will be using in the future for my late night programming sessions.
 
FractalAudio said:
The 20/20 has to be the worst sounding tube power amp I've ever tried. 2/90 is great. 50/50 is great. 20/20, not so much.
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I will wait until my CLR number arrives... My buddy was demoing them at NAMM and we had a chance to get a little louder than the decimal meter man would let us...lol.. I thought they sounded true...

FAS, I agree about the 20/20 pre "Fat Mod" The only time i liked it, is when I did the mod, but I sold it anyway, and I never sell gear...lol....Agree 2:90 and 2:50 are monsters..

I wish I would have had found AFX pre Mark V, Pre Engl SE, pre 2:90 & triaxis..... I can replicate everything "AMP" accept TUBE POWER......All the preamps that I am familiar with are dead on....the TMA's are really close....But something about

Worse case scenario is I can drop an 8U to 4U and only need 2 plugs.....But still way heavy....
 
Apart from its sonic signature, keep in the mind the 20/20 is just that -- 20 watts per side.

Fine for lower volume if you liked the sound of it, but when I tried it on stage mine started breaking up and adding a LOT more distortion and coloration on top of what was coming out of the JMP-1 preamp. That made it really difficult to get consistent tone.

Also, the little sucker sounds like an airplane revving up -- it has a very loud fan.

My .02,
TT
 
sounds to me like you built your presets for one monitoring system and then switched...
if this is the case it can make things difficult with your tone..
each time you change to a new monitoring system you'll need to dial into it..

with respect to the poweramp side of things...
the Matrix won't colour the tone much [if at all] cos it's flat, but it will feel similar to a valve amp
the poweramp tone itself comes from the Axe, so between the two you should have it all

this tells me that your presets are not dialled in to the Q12's

FRFR cabs / monitors are not 100% FRFR, they're just very close..
we did an experiment at the UK AxeFest with one Axe-II and switched between different monitors..
everyone agreed a 1st place, 2nd place etc list of the monitors...
then we switched to my Axe-II and did it again..
the outcome surprised all of us... the list was reversed...
the best was now the worst etc...

if your mids are proud, did you try a quick fix via the global eq??
maybe try cutting 500Hz a little
if you're sounding 'boxy' or 'nasal', maybe try some small cuts in the 500Hz and 1k areas
EDIT: nail this, note the settings and pop a GEQ into your presets with those settings and you'll have solved your problems

with a flat poweramp like the GT and FRFR monitoring, you need the poweramp and cab sims both on

if you're not taking to FRFR monitoring, I'd be inclined to take Adam's advice and try driving a traditional cab with the GT
 
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