Wish Modeling the clean channel Amps

[My name is mud]

This is a really good point; I guess it's all a matter of who the onus falls on: the user to do the research to figure out what tone stacks are identical to the one they want already in the unit or the manufacturer for simply copying/pasting an amp they already have, rename the copy to the desired amp, and then make everyone happy by adding one more amp. Of course, I doubt any are IDENTICAL copies, even if close, and Cliff doesn't seem to be one who would be willing to sacrifice his reputation by doing something like that (otherwise, he would have given us a Klon many years ago lol!). Interesting idea, though.

Ha ! We totally agree . Let’s just hope that @FractalAudio agree too and will fill all the clean channels holes when he have the time

 

[mixermang]

take any high gain model and change the tonestack location to pre or mid and run the gain and input trim low/off, then boost 20dB of 70Hz into the input

 

[Michael R]

I agree, Clean channels of the amps!
Like, where is the clean ch for the Silver Jubilee? That amp has a very unique clean ch and if you can model the "Pull Rhythm Clip" input gain it becomes a whole other animal on clean or dirty ch. Not to mention: The Lead Master knob interacts very much with the overall gain along with the Output Master. That Lexerst "Brit Silver" doesn't come close to what the Jubilee can do. There are so many good tones in that amp from clean to bluesy to brutal.
Oh, and where is the Marshall 6100LE? A beautiful clean ch on that amp and the lower gain ch mode "B"..........supposedly a JCM800 tone but unlike an 800 it retains clarity and dosen't get muddy when you crank it up- sort of like a JCM900 but with more warmth.
I know there is a JVM, but that amp is my least favorite of all Marshall amps. It's a pathetic copy of Marshall tones. The JMP-1 does a better job at mimicing Marshall tones. But again, where is the clean channels on the JMP-1? Another very nice clean ch tone.
And speaking of Marshall amps....where is the JCM 2000 DSL? Especially the LD 1 and the "Crunch".

 

[peteri]

I agree, Clean channels of the amps!
Like, where is the clean ch for the Silver Jubilee? That amp has a very unique clean ch and if you can model the "Pull Rhythm Clip" input gain it becomes a whole other animal on clean or dirty ch. Not to mention: The Lead Master knob interacts very much with the overall gain along with the Output Master. That Lexerst "Brit Silver" doesn't come close to what the Jubilee can do. There are so many good tones in that amp from clean to bluesy to brutal.
Oh, and where is the Marshall 6100LE? A beautiful clean ch on that amp and the lower gain ch mode "B"..........supposedly a JCM800 tone but unlike an 800 it retains clarity and dosen't get muddy when you crank it up- sort of like a JCM900 but with more warmth.
I know there is a JVM, but that amp is my least favorite of all Marshall amps. It's a pathetic copy of Marshall tones. The JMP-1 does a better job at mimicing Marshall tones. But again, where is the clean channels on the JMP-1? Another very nice clean ch tone.
And speaking of Marshall amps....where is the JCM 2000 DSL? Especially the LD 1 and the "Crunch".

I really agree with this on the Jubilee, I loved my original one (bought with my first credit card!) and gigged it a lot.

Having all the interaction with the controls would be amazing - I find the current model good but kind of one dimensional in comparison.

Talking of which, a Fractal model of a real Jubilee would be better than the original amp - much as I loved it, it always felt like a compromise between clean and crunch, would be amazing not to be so constrained

 

[My name is mud]

I agree, Clean channels of the amps!
Like, where is the clean ch for the Silver Jubilee? That amp has a very unique clean ch and if you can model the "Pull Rhythm Clip" input gain it becomes a whole other animal on clean or dirty ch. Not to mention: The Lead Master knob interacts very much with the overall gain along with the Output Master. That Lexerst "Brit Silver" doesn't come close to what the Jubilee can do. There are so many good tones in that amp from clean to bluesy to brutal.
Oh, and where is the Marshall 6100LE? A beautiful clean ch on that amp and the lower gain ch mode "B"..........supposedly a JCM800 tone but unlike an 800 it retains clarity and dosen't get muddy when you crank it up- sort of like a JCM900 but with more warmth.
I know there is a JVM, but that amp is my least favorite of all Marshall amps. It's a pathetic copy of Marshall tones. The JMP-1 does a better job at mimicing Marshall tones. But again, where is the clean channels on the JMP-1? Another very nice clean ch tone.
And speaking of Marshall amps....where is the JCM 2000 DSL? Especially the LD 1 and the "Crunch".

Yes we discuss it many times, just opened another tread about the jubilee some days ago … I hope @FractalAudio will include these clean channels everywhere and consider the Marshall jubilee .

@mixermang i appreciate your tips tweaking things in the advanced parameter everywhere, but doing this I don’t have the impression to “own” the model in the axe, the philosophy in the axe wasn’t to have 5 models types and tweak them to hell to have all the others models

 

[mixermang]

tweaking things in the advanced parameter everywhere, but doing this I don’t have the impression to “own” the model in the axe

that's what kemper or QC is for, when you set up your amp and put the mic where you want it, the profile/capture (which is not even a model) is actually yours, it's your gear and it sounds and plays just like it.

AFX3 does have tonematch, which is a 90% solution, even before adjusting any advanced circuit parameters. Tonematch combined with myriad combinations of bias/sag/impedance/speakerResonance/etc, i guarantee you could match a specific tone to your exacting satisfaction. Tonematch just isn't really advertised as a prominent capability of AFX3, otherwise I think a lot more people would use it. Have you ever done any tonematching? JP2C model legit doesn't even need it, but if you had some old isolated recordings of your roadking or roadster, you could even use just the audio clips to tonematch a Recto 2. I'd be very interested to hear how well Recto 2 tonematches to a roadster/roadking

the philosophy in the axe wasn’t to have 5 models types and tweak them to hell to have all the others models

funny enough, that's exactly the philosophy. there are only so many amplifier circuit variations, most of those based on a handful of original baseline designs.

Recto 1 is a chrome face early 90's Rev G, Recto 2 is a mid-2010's multi-watt reborn Dual Rec 100w head. There's a reason the original 3-channel solo head wasn't chosen, or modeled, yet, because the solo head red modern preamp is an almost literal drop-in from the Rev G red modern preamp. There's a reason there is no roadster or roadking model, notwithstanding a reliable schematic is probably not available, second to the inability to stomach modelling the circuit layout of an amp as complicated as those...the multi-watt reborn 100w Dual Rec head is what mesa consolidated and put together after their decade of roadster/roadking work. The Recto 2 circuits are the roadster/roadking circuits, less infinitesimal voicing changes, or amp transformer differences, or master volume cap differences, or bias differences, etc etc etc ad infinitum.

if you were to take a recording of a roadster/roadking and tonematch it to Recto 2, the EQ match alone would account for 90% of the difference, before you even have to touch any advanced parameters.

 

[My name is mud]

funny enough, that's exactly the philosophy

If the philosophy was to have 5 types and built them all we won’t have 200 amps and things like having ac15, ac30, hot, bright … the only reason we don’t have the others are that cliff don’t care about them, don’t have the amp, or have other priorities (or all 3 at the same time )

the kemper capture your amp, that’s not the case of the axe . if you don’t own the amp and never play one how can you built it and be sure with your result? I’m not a amp maker, I prefer playing guitar . All these things are interesting but the axe 3 is not amp simulator 2022 to me . Everyone use it like it want it too.
this is done to play music normally . Personally I don’t care about transformers, impedance and all this **** . When I tweak the advanced parameters, or nothing special happened, or it destroyed the signal … I want an accurate collection of amps and effects, nothing more first.

 

[My name is mud]

Some people buy a guitar to sing a song, some to play faster as possible, some to change pickups every 2 days … some to do all 3 .

Some guys when they ask a question don’t want to hear : “read the 200 pages of the manual !”
They just want an answer .

Some guys when they powered up the axe want to have “Marshall jubilee” written on it, the basics controls , and rock . Not spending the afternoon trying to understand how an amp work . This is not being a fool or ignorant, if you don’t care, you don’t care, about technical stuff . I don’t think that all the car drivers knows how a motor work hm ? And that Mercedes, want their customers to know that, to enjoy their cars .

 

[FractalAudio]

I agree, Clean channels of the amps!
Like, where is the clean ch for the Silver Jubilee? That amp has a very unique clean ch and if you can model the "Pull Rhythm Clip" input gain it becomes a whole other animal on clean or dirty ch. Not to mention: The Lead Master knob interacts very much with the overall gain along with the Output Master. That Lexerst "Brit Silver" doesn't come close to what the Jubilee can do. There are so many good tones in that amp from clean to bluesy to brutal.
Oh, and where is the Marshall 6100LE? A beautiful clean ch on that amp and the lower gain ch mode "B"..........supposedly a JCM800 tone but unlike an 800 it retains clarity and dosen't get muddy when you crank it up- sort of like a JCM900 but with more warmth.
I know there is a JVM, but that amp is my least favorite of all Marshall amps. It's a pathetic copy of Marshall tones. The JMP-1 does a better job at mimicing Marshall tones. But again, where is the clean channels on the JMP-1? Another very nice clean ch tone.
And speaking of Marshall amps....where is the JCM 2000 DSL? Especially the LD 1 and the "Crunch".

I'm sorry there aren't enough models for you.

 

[Smilzo]

Many years ago, I suggested to add "type" to preamp & poweramp. Not split the block, but let the user choose a different preamp circuit and a different poweramp circuit, within the available ones. What do you think?

 

[ElectricPhase]

If a certain amp's clean channel sounds the same as an existing model and has the same circuit, it's redundant.

I know that this is asking too much.

If you ever have time to do another revision to your wonderful amp guide, could you add a 'clean channel equivalent' field to the summary block?

 

[mixermang]

Many years ago, I suggested to add "type" to preamp & poweramp. Not split the block, but let the user choose a different preamp circuit and a different poweramp circuit, within the available ones. What do you think?

that would fix everything

 

[Michael R]

Many years ago, I suggested to add "type" to preamp & poweramp. Not split the block, but let the user choose a different preamp circuit and a different poweramp circuit, within the available ones. What do you think?

Best suggestion on this whole site!
I have always said: the most important part of your tone is your guitar, power amp and speaker cab.
When it comes to power amps, the proof is in the pudding I have used rack pres and many of different power amps over my 35 years of playing.
Power amps are as different as a guitars or speaker cabs.
For instance: you could take a JMP-1 into the following amps, A DSL, Silver Jubilee, 1987X and a Mesa DR. Out of those 4 which would sound the most modern scooped sounding? Most guys would guess the Mesa or DSL but they would be wrong. It would be the Silver Jubilee. Out of the 4 which would sound the most anemic? The Mesa! You want your JMP-1 to sound more vintage? Then use the 1987x. Want to make your JMP-1 sound more modern? Then use the DSL. Want your JMP-1 to sound like SH!T? Use the Mesa DR.
How do I know all of this? EXPERINCE....been there and done that.

 

[RICARH]

I agree, Clean channels of the amps!
Like, where is the clean ch for the Silver Jubilee? That amp has a very unique clean ch and if you can model the "Pull Rhythm Clip" input gain it becomes a whole other animal on clean or dirty ch. Not to mention: The Lead Master knob interacts very much with the overall gain along with the Output Master. That Lexerst "Brit Silver" doesn't come close to what the Jubilee can do. There are so many good tones in that amp from clean to bluesy to brutal.
Oh, and where is the Marshall 6100LE? A beautiful clean ch on that amp and the lower gain ch mode "B"..........supposedly a JCM800 tone but unlike an 800 it retains clarity and dosen't get muddy when you crank it up- sort of like a JCM900 but with more warmth.
I know there is a JVM, but that amp is my least favorite of all Marshall amps. It's a pathetic copy of Marshall tones. The JMP-1 does a better job at mimicing Marshall tones. But again, where is the clean channels on the JMP-1? Another very nice clean ch tone.
And speaking of Marshall amps....where is the JCM 2000 DSL? Especially the LD 1 and the "Crunch".

Thanks for understand the wish. I don't know about the electronic eschemes of the amps. It's not my work. I bought a product of a greatest company and is my wish because they can do it (not only the distortion channels). This is not a Rocksmith game, we are musicians and we want to play with the best clean amps too.

 

[RICARH]

I'm sorry there aren't enough models for you.

There are a lot of models (or models with all their channels better). Is only that there is some clean amps that we wish and we put it in the wish list. You are one of the greatest brands of the market and our wish is to have all the channels of the amp like if we have the real amps.
Don't worry about your share , is amazing all the things that you do for the Fractal comunity. Thanks!

 

[yyz67]

Many years ago, I suggested to add "type" to preamp & poweramp. Not split the block, but let the user choose a different preamp circuit and a different poweramp circuit, within the available ones. What do you think?

Agreed, would be cool AF. Probably also increase the FAS customer base. (So would set lists.)

There would be some challenges with the "authentic" interface when mixing pre/power amps as well as shared subsytems like the power supply. Dunno if all preamp and power amp circuits would be compatible (interoperable) and/or if instabilities could arise as well.

Regardless, it would be worthy of a new FW name and version 1!

 

[Smilzo]

There would be some challenges with the "authentic" interface when mixing pre/power amps as well as shared subsytems like the power supply. Dunno if all preamp and power amp circuits would be compatible (interoperable) and/or if instabilities could arise as well.

I remember Cliff long ago think about let user design their own amps. He drop this, modeling for us every worthy different type of amp and variations. This could be a "in between" solution.
Sure, there are compatibility issue, but if you think preamp and poweramp as "black box" with standard I/O connection (plate voltage, feebdack tap, I/O signal, ...) than you could swap the box as needed.
As an added bonus, if one box is "blank" then we could use the amp block as a poweramp only. And using 2 block (one only as preamp, the other as poweramp) we could built our "virtual rack" with effect in between, like real rack.

Regardless, it would be worthy of a new FW name and version 1!

The sound should not change, still version+1!

 

[FusionFanatic]

FAS has given us so many quality options, that we are spoiled to ask for more. How many amps does one really need to have? How much sonic difference will there be compared to another similar amp?

On the other side of this... sure, more of the clean channel of some amps would be welcome.
Ex: The Marshall JVM. Why OD1 & OD2? Both are basically the same exact thing except OD2 has even more gain than one would even need. Same thing with a few other models.
Some might say... lower the gain and input trim to clean it up. Fair enough... but IMO, it doesn’t really yield the same thing.

This is not a gripe,.. there’s more than enough to choose from. Again,.. FAS has provided us with a very powerful piece of professional gear, capable of an infinite amount of great tones. It’s as deep as you dare to go.

 

[Metron]

My biggest dislike with my III so far is that there is no Herbert clean channel. Trying multiple tricks to mimic it has only gotten me about 80% of the way there

Would love to see the Herbert clean added and the true Midcut from the amp in the Amp Block EQ. Though the midcut is pretty easy to cop. Would just like the specific one.

 

[Smilzo]

Channels in a real amp are "circuital patches", the poweramp is optimal for one channel only. Think about a SLO, the lead channel roars, while crunch and clean are useable (compared to say a m.plexi and f.twin). So, in FAS vision, we have the best: we can choose to recall the ENTIRE amp, a clean with no compromise with a lead with no compromise. But some players love the "wrong" channel, or some setting of a preamp (bright on, off, mid scooped, etc). So Cliff modeled what he though was worth. Hence different version of the same amp (recto, to name one). If you want a clean channel, better watch for a fender or vox or boutique rather than clean channel of a recto. This is way not all amps have all the real channels/preamp settings.
Still, I think that with AXEFX tweakabilty the option to mix preamp and poweramp could lead to interesting sounds.