Just about had it

Speculum Speculorum said:
So you've tried lots of IRs, different guitars with what I'm assuming have different pickups. You've tried tone matches and other people's tone matches. You've tweaked until your ears bleed and you aren't happy.

Have you ever gotten a recorded tone out of any other rig that you're happy with? Like - an amp and cab with an SM57 on it? Or a Pod? Or any other thing? Explain if you have, please. What guitars are you recording with? What pickups are you using? How old are your strings when you record your clips? Are you sure the guy in the clip you posted hasn't applied post processing to the guitars? Like a limiter, multi-band compression, tape saturation, console saturation, or even EQ?

But mostly, I'm interested in hearing any other recorded tones that you've done that you ARE happy with. If you've never recorded tones you are happy with, how do you know whether or not the Axe-fx II recording experience would differ?

EDIT: And for the record, I'm pretty sure what the guy has going in that clip is a drive pedal in front of an amp with very little gain and it's being pushed really hard, and he's probably got some air dialed in on the cab as well as (maybe) a dialed in amount of motor drive. Your clip has more gain, scooped mids (especially in the 700-1500 Hz region) and a lot more bottom end. I'm also guessing he's using really fresh strings and your are old, but that's a total spitball assessment.
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Speculum - your posts are always very informative - you clearly know what you are talking about with metal guitar. Maybe a little off topic but definitely related - what are post processing effects you would recommend to nail that modern hi-gain highly saturated tone? I think in the end what MetalGarret and all of us care about is the tone that ends up on our recorded music.
 
I try to give as much information as to what works for me when I post, mainly because a lot of people on the forum were so helpful to me when I got started with this thing (which was entirely foreign to me as it was my first modeler).

It'll sound like a copout when I say it, but many others who are much better mixers and engineers have said it before me: the most important thing is getting a great take with a great tone, and everything follows after that. I think the most important thing for the modern polished metal tone is dialing in a drive/amp interaction that you like. For me, I like using the FAS Modern II with OH Mesa V32 and CB Cabs. I set my gain low, anywhere from 1-1.25 and then start working with dialing in my drive. Usually it's the TS-808 type and I set the tone from 5-7, and my level anywhere from 7-10 depending upon what I'm going for. I almost never use drive as I'm just boosting. I find lately it's best with the TS808 Mod and I turn the low cut up to 650-700.

The biggest thing is that a lot of guys just simply use too much gain on their recorded tones. I wouldn't describe my guitar tones as thin or wimpy, but it just doesn't sound quite right until the bass gets there. That's the hard part of recording direct. You have to turn off the "amp in the room" brain and just think like an engineer.

After that, I don't use a lot on my chain. I now use Slate's VCC (which is the SHIT, btw), but I liked Sonimus Satson (which is a cheaper alternative but still very nice) before then. I don't like using multiband compression - it's just a personal thing. My EQ is very simple. Usually filter around 80-90 and 10,000 and sometimes a small cut from 150-170, a little scoop around 300 and I'm good to go. I use Slate VTM on my bus, which definitely adds some nice saturation.

Having a good guitar, excellent pickups (I like BKP for the heavy stuff personally, but there's so many awesome pickups out there anymore it's ridiculous), and absolutely fresh strings is essential to good tone. Without those, you have to work a lot harder to get to where you're going. In fact, if you aren't using spanky fresh strings, you might as well just stop now and pack it in.
 
Der JD said:
Recommending a tube amp is definitely not a good solution. The OP is searching for "his" recorded tone, not a live or "amp in the room" tone. Trying to get the perfect tone for recording by micing a tube amp is going to be even more complicated and will cause frustration with no end.

Despite all the Axe's power, there are some that still never find the tone they're looking for with it. Is it possible? Maybe...maybe not.

As mentioned previously, the guitar itself could be problematic here. For example, I have several guitars but only one of them really nails my preferred modern hi-gain metal tone. The others come close but no cigar. And it's not for lack of trying. I've tried changing pickups, EQing, etc. but never have been successful in getting the same exact tone I get with that one guitar. No big deal, though. The other guitars do other tones well.

Tone is "in the hands" could be somewhat a factor as well. I think it's over exaggerated on internet forums, but it certainly is a factor, amongst many.
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100% agree. The O.P's technique of hand muting is not the same as the original either. When you listen to someone who has this down, it makes a big difference on the tone. The first clip (original and not the tone match part) has a low mid thump to it that comes from resting the picking hand in just the right spot so you get that resonance during and after each note. I really think a great deal of the tone matching issues people have are due to technique and the guitar itself. I will never be a believer that you can get a strat with single coils to sound like a Les Paul with a JB in the bridge. THere are so many complex electrical and physical elements at play. I always do way better with tone matching by ear rather than the AXe's tonematching feature. It gets the overall "shape" of the EQ in the ballpark but you have to get so many other things right too. A good example is to listen to that first clip and notice the difference between the first clip and the second part of that clip which , someone mentioned, is a tonematch. It sounds like it's in the ballpark but there is alot more going on in the first part that is not present in the second part. Babbling.....
 
Speculum Speculorum said:
I try to give as much information as to what works for me when I post, mainly because a lot of people on the forum were so helpful to me when I got started with this thing (which was entirely foreign to me as it was my first modeler).

It'll sound like a copout when I say it, but many others who are much better mixers and engineers have said it before me: the most important thing is getting a great take with a great tone, and everything follows after that. I think the most important thing for the modern polished metal tone is dialing in a drive/amp interaction that you like. For me, I like using the FAS Modern II with OH Mesa V32 and CB Cabs. I set my gain low, anywhere from 1-1.25 and then start working with dialing in my drive. Usually it's the TS-808 type and I set the tone from 5-7, and my level anywhere from 7-10 depending upon what I'm going for. I almost never use drive as I'm just boosting. I find lately it's best with the TS808 Mod and I turn the low cut up to 650-700.

The biggest thing is that a lot of guys just simply use too much gain on their recorded tones. I wouldn't describe my guitar tones as thin or wimpy, but it just doesn't sound quite right until the bass gets there. That's the hard part of recording direct. You have to turn off the "amp in the room" brain and just think like an engineer.

After that, I don't use a lot on my chain. I now use Slate's VCC (which is the SHIT, btw), but I liked Sonimus Satson (which is a cheaper alternative but still very nice) before then. I don't like using multiband compression - it's just a personal thing. My EQ is very simple. Usually filter around 80-90 and 10,000 and sometimes a small cut from 150-170, a little scoop around 300 and I'm good to go. I use Slate VTM on my bus, which definitely adds some nice saturation.

Having a good guitar, excellent pickups (I like BKP for the heavy stuff personally, but there's so many awesome pickups out there anymore it's ridiculous), and absolutely fresh strings is essential to good tone. Without those, you have to work a lot harder to get to where you're going. In fact, if you aren't using spanky fresh strings, you might as well just stop now and pack it in.
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Thanks Brother.
 
Sacha said:
A lot of people don't realize the secret to sick high gain tone? In my opinion, it's sick bass tone. That's a huge part of it anyway.
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This. AND the drums. Not sure if it's the case here (can't listen to the clips right now) but the other elements (bass and drums especially) have a massive influence on the perceived tone of the guitars.

Didn't realize the extent of this until just recently. I used EZdrummer for a couple years (with extensive post-processing), which is not a bad product. However, a few months ago I switched to Superior Drummer. I found some presets that I liked and tweaked them to taste. The difference was like night and day in terms of the overall quality of the mix.

I'm not making a case for EZdrummer vs. Superior. That's beside the point. The point is that when you get the drums right and get the bass right in your mix it WILL make your guitar tone seem 10 times better. Shit sounding drums/bass = shit sounding guitar, even if the guitar track soloed sounds great. It's basically a steak with a pile of dogshit on it. It's a steak, sure, but nobody's going to eat it because it's covered in dogshit.

A lot of people fuss and fuss over their guitar tone when it's really the bass/drum tone and fitting everything together in the mix that they should focus on.
 
So many posts since I started work today...

In regards to my tone, I woke up this morning and I was still mostly happy with it which was a great sign. I'm still gonna work on it and use some recommendations you guys have given me. Thanks! Has anyone played with the patch since I posted it? Curious to what people found.

As far as mixing goes, I'm pretty decent at and know enough to realize that a track sound great because ALL of the ensemble is great and works together nicely. Im happy with my bass tone for this project and the drums sound like they're punching you in the face. I'm good on those fronts. There's also a lot of keyboard parts but that's a whole other story. Its just the guitar. The instrument that has long been the dominant instrument in rock n' roll. Remember that. The guitar has alwasy been the most dominant instrument in this business. That should remind anyone as to why your sound is so important to you. Why it matters so damn much.

I'd hate to think of my guitar as the problem. I spent a good amount of money on intonation adjustments and pickup installments. And the neck feels absolutely fantastic. I've yet to play another guitar that gives me the ability to do what I do on it. Not that doesnt exist of course but you get the idea.

Soon as I workout then eat I'll get to tweaking...
 
Here's the secret to getting your dream tone from the Axe FX:

Fuck with it.

Fuck with it a lot. Fuck with it until you're tired of fucking with it and then fuck with it some more.

Eventually you'll get an intuition for what creates the sounds you like, not what other people like and have used. You're already half way there, you've got some great sounds.

Just keep fucking with it. 8)
 
MetalGarret said:
I'd hate to think of my guitar as the problem. I spent a good amount of money on intonation adjustments and pickup installments. And the neck feels absolutely fantastic. I've yet to play another guitar that gives me the ability to do what I do on it. Not that doesnt exist of course but you get the idea.
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Your guitar is not the problem. It just isn't the same as Petrucci or however used for the sample. Also, you are not Petrucci. To be honest, I haven't read every reply since it is a hell lot of text, but I noticed some people mentioning that other things in your chain might be "wrong". Well, it is not "wrong" in terms of "bad", but just, as mentioned before, not Petrucci and his hands. The guitar itself and playing technique actually does make a huge amount of difference. Just try out a different pick, you'll completely change your tone. Put the same pickups in different guitars - completely different. In other words, you can't get Petrucci's tone just as he can't get yours.
 
Stillbruch said:
Your guitar is not the problem. It just isn't the same as Petrucci or however used for the sample. Also, you are not Petrucci. To be honest, I haven't read every reply since it is a hell lot of text, but I noticed some people mentioning that other things in your chain might be "wrong". Well, it is not "wrong" in terms of "bad", but just, as mentioned before, not Petrucci and his hands. The guitar itself and playing technique actually does make a huge amount of difference. Just try out a different pick, you'll completely change your tone. Put the same pickups in different guitars - completely different. In other words, you can't get Petrucci's tone just as he can't get yours.
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That's true. However I meant to use his tone as an example of that growl Im after. Others have it too I just can't think of who at the top of my head.

ALso, I replaced my strings a week ago.
 
Stillbruch said:
you can't get Petrucci's tone just as he can't get yours.
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Damn right. If he wants mine he can pay me.:pride:

Anyway, don't underestimate tone matching. Its a way you can get his tone, by playing your way. I agree that you wouldn't be able to get his tone if you were to play his rig and settings, but.. you never will anyway.
 
Ive tried a thousand times to tone match but I just cant seem to get it right. as soon as i hit enter, my guitar tone dies. I dont understand it.
 
there MUST be something wrong in your TM process - tell the Axe II guys what your TM block settings are. It can't just not work for you.
 
Anyway, the two main points for guitar tone (minus bass/drum interaction) that seem to be in focus in this thread are tone EQ and texture (e.g. growl)

I have been interested in getting a growl in my tone too. Is that from the mic phase effect FAS was describing, or some form of post-processsing? What would be involved in the post-processing?
 
So here's something I did just last night. I took the audio from the Mesa Mark V settings video as a reference. I dialed in a USA LEAD + with settings from the vid because I trust that the model will react the same (relatively so) as the Mark IV channel from the V. TMB and Presence, Gain, and Graphic Eq all the same. Then the KEY COMPONENT. Cliff has been saying lately that the IR is the MOST IMPORTANT factor. So I'm just taking his advice and I went through the RW pack with Cab Lab until I found a good mix that was pretty much a match.

From other vids Petrucci has said that he likes a 57 right on the speaker, so I started there. Now I don't exactly what they used for this particular vid, but it's probably (not definitely) a 57. Also you can definitely hear some of the room in the vid so I started looking at the other IRs (behind the cab) to mix in and it sounds pretty damn good.

Remember, even though an artist may say what they like as far as getting good tones, it doesn't necessary mean that that's what WE'RE hearing in the final mix. Petrucci likes a 57? Well I've also seen pics of his cabs mic'ed up with 4 different mics in different placements. DRAMATIC changes in tone right there, not to mention place,net changing the phasing (as Cliff stated earlier). In the end, the IR is really going to make the difference which is why a tone match can replace a cab block. In the end, do a tone match or dial thru IRs and use your ears. Hope this helped a bit. Good luck!

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