Is the gain structure on the Mark IV really like this?

symphx said:
FractalAudio said:
actually I responded when I saw shotgunns post before I saw yer response, but I still believe there is some gain to be had, esp. in 5150, for live purposes, not for quad tracking and the like.
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Are you kidding? If you can't get enough gain out of the 5150 or 6505 or whatever you kids are calling it these days, you probably should just put a couple analog distortion pedals in front of the Axefx, then two digital ones in serial going into one high gain amp, then feed that output to a second amp's input and crank the gain to 11 because that's what it will take to satisfy the distortion vampire in you. :) Seriously though, I have yet to hear a type of music so thrash or so heavy that the Axefx couldn't easily cover with gain to spare. Even live, too much gain can get ugly. You may think it's killer where you're at, but it might be a buzzing wall of hiss and noise in the PA speakers.
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Is there an equivalent "trim" knob in the Axe Standard for the Mesa Mark models? I get enough gain/distortion out of the Mark IV Lead 1 setting, but I would be curious to play with this trim knob...
 
symphx,

Don't be afraid to crank the input trim, it's not like it's taboo or something. It simply increases the signal hitting the front of the amp. It will have the exact same effect as throwing a null filter in front of the amp. Optionally, you can also throw a null filter (or shelving/blocking filter, or PEQ, or drive block, blah blah) in front of the amp. They ALL accomplish the same basic purpose of increasing gain by increasing the signal to the preamp, but each of them has its pluses and minus, as anything but a null filter (or the input trim) will change the input signal. You probably know this, but you will generally want to cut out more bass as you increase gain, or you end up with something really flubby. Same applies to the analog world as well. This is the whole reason high-output pickups and distortion pedals were invented in the first place.

Fyi, I can easily oversaturate the 6160 with my medium output humbuckers. At that point it sounds like poo. Also, don't forget the bass plays a critical role in filling the sound stage.
 
guittarzzan said:
symphx said:
Are you kidding? If you can't get enough gain out of the 5150 or 6505 or whatever you kids are calling it these days, you probably should just put a couple analog distortion pedals in front of the Axefx, then two digital ones in serial going into one high gain amp, then feed that output to a second amp's input and crank the gain to 11 because that's what it will take to satisfy the distortion vampire in you. :)
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^^this re: 5150
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to be honest it may be my pa speakers, they are quite loud in my bedroom and I am sure if I crank them all the gain in the world will be there, I just dont wanna go deaf, thanks for any and all advice, I definitely have some super high gain sounds, eg. recto "new" and powerball. I just have a lot of trouble dialing in the 5150, as stevero said the bass really changes, gets flubby. I just havent found the perfect ir and eq settings when I try to dial in more gain.
 
I was creating a Mark IIC+ patch for my post in this thread: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...otes-chord-voicings-axe-ii-15.html#post598109

I found I wanted a bit more gain than what I was getting with drive on 10 so I turned on the boost switch. Voila: Problem solved.

Before you go asking (or in some cases it sounds more like demanding) new firmware please stop and think for 2 seconds about how to fix the issue you are having. Usually, it is pretty simple.
 
ak49climber said:
Is there an equivalent "trim" knob in the Axe Standard for the Mesa Mark models? I get enough gain/distortion out of the Mark IV Lead 1 setting, but I would be curious to play with this trim knob...
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Boost or put a filter in front set to null, boost level
 
Hello,
I own a real Mark V and I think your close as far as gain. the Amp is not loaded with dripping gain. Its a hard sounding punchy amp with alot of compression. The gain is also tied in with the treble control.
 
wooow thanks for all the good advices! Rellay some helpful pieces of information in this thread - this board rocks :D. I now set gain to 6.14, engaged the amp boost and set input trim to about 2... i think overall i have to tweak some more, as right now the gain is a little over the top and the low end isnt that tight. But overall your tipps were great! Thanks for that. I did a new recording: First part is my patch, second part is the original track by Petrucci. Cheers!

[Soundcloud]http://soundcloud.com/stockman/markiv-axefx-3[/soundcloud]
 
That actually sounds pretty dang close. I agree, too much gain though. Turn the boost off and turn the trim up more.

Frozen said:
wooow thanks for all the good advices! Rellay some helpful pieces of information in this thread - this board rocks :D. I now set gain to 6.14, engaged the amp boost and set input trim to about 2... i think overall i have to tweak some more, as right now the gain is a little over the top and the low end isnt that tight. But overall your tipps were great! Thanks for that. I did a new recording: First part is my patch, second part is the original track by Petrucci. Cheers!

[Soundcloud]http://soundcloud.com/stockman/markiv-axefx-3[/soundcloud]
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Frozen said:
wooow thanks for all the good advices! Rellay some helpful pieces of information in this thread - this board rocks :D. I now set gain to 6.14, engaged the amp boost and set input trim to about 2... i think overall i have to tweak some more, as right now the gain is a little over the top and the low end isnt that tight. But overall your tipps were great! Thanks for that. I did a new recording: First part is my patch, second part is the original track by Petrucci. Cheers!

[Soundcloud]http://soundcloud.com/stockman/markiv-axefx-3[/soundcloud]
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pretty close yours is a bit "fuzzy" and a touch less scooped than JP
 
Frozen said:
wooow thanks for all the good advices! Rellay some helpful pieces of information in this thread - this board rocks :D. I now set gain to 6.14, engaged the amp boost and set input trim to about 2... i think overall i have to tweak some more, as right now the gain is a little over the top and the low end isnt that tight. But overall your tipps were great! Thanks for that. I did a new recording: First part is my patch, second part is the original track by Petrucci. Cheers!

[Soundcloud]http://soundcloud.com/stockman/markiv-axefx-3[/soundcloud]
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Have you shared your preset? If not please do, I would love to tweak.
 
Here's another unrelated thought that is related. The things with gain and eq is that it-at least in my case-sounds completely different while playing as opposed to listening. I learned years ago that the amount of gain and top end I like while playing is not happening to my ears when listening. So I started to use less gain and less top end. FWIW
 
As Sean and Adam know (this is for others who are new to the Axe), engaging boost is just a 12dB increase to input. Same exact thing as putting a +12dB null filter in front of the amp, except that you can't change the amount of signal increase like you can with a null filter (e.g. suppose you need +9dB). By adjusting trim in addition to engaging boost, you're just adding (if input trim > 1) or reducing (if input trim < 1) to this +12dB. I don't know what the exact correlation is between input trim and and signal gain (e.g. is input trim of 2.00 equal to +3dB signal boost?).

If you find that it's starting to get too muddy with all this boost, you can increase the low cut for the amp (and probably bring the bass down as well) or instead of using a null filter in front of the amp use a high pass blocking or shelving filter. A PEQ can do the same thing as well--the beauty of the Axe is that there are a plethora of options to accomplish the same thing.
 
symphx said:
pretty close yours is a bit "fuzzy" and a touch less scooped than JP
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+1
Its too fuzzy, too much gain, its like the overdriven sound overdrives itself. Petrucci's tone is more smooth but you're theoreticaly there! Well done !
 
I feel that some of the character of the MK series amplifiers is lost when I have resort to other gain boosting options. It starts to sound less and less like my IIC+ and a MKIV. I hope I didn't come accross as demanding. I just kind of hope the IIC+ and MKIV would sound the same, if not better in the Axe II than they did in the Ultra. I still feel that something has been lost in the Axe II with the high gain MK series amps. I know that I can boost with a null filter or a PEQ or the input trim or the boost switch. I'm obviously not the only one who feels this way. I never had to boost my real IIC+ at all. If the goal of the Axe FX is to create the ultimate realistic amp sims then I feel the amp sim itself should be able to acheive the proper amount of gain in and of itself. The input trim is not a real feature and therefor cannot offer the same character as the original amp. Using the input trim can get me the same 'amount' of gain. I still feel that it offers a different character than the original. Again, I am not the only one. I don't mean to offend anyone at FAS, I am only trying to raise a genuine concern with my all time favorite amp model on the world greatest amp sim device.

AdamCook said:
I was creating a Mark IIC+ patch for my post in this thread: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...otes-chord-voicings-axe-ii-15.html#post598109

I found I wanted a bit more gain than what I was getting with drive on 10 so I turned on the boost switch. Voila: Problem solved.

Before you go asking (or in some cases it sounds more like demanding) new firmware please stop and think for 2 seconds about how to fix the issue you are having. Usually, it is pretty simple.
Click to expand...
 
shotgunn said:
I feel that some of the character of the MK series amplifiers is lost when I have resort to other gain boosting options. It starts to sound less and less like my IIC+ and a MKIV. I hope I didn't come accross as demanding. I just kind of hope the IIC+ and MKIV would sound the same, if not better in the Axe II than they did in the Ultra. I still feel that something has been lost in the Axe II with the high gain MK series amps. I know that I can boost with a null filter or a PEQ or the input trim or the boost switch. I'm obviously not the only one who feels this way. I never had to boost my real IIC+ at all. If the goal of the Axe FX is to create the ultimate realistic amp sims then I feel the amp sim itself should be able to acheive the proper amount of gain in and of itself. The input trim is not a real feature and therefor cannot offer the same character as the original amp. Using the input trim can get me the same 'amount' of gain. I still feel that it offers a different character than the original. Again, I am not the only one. I don't mean to offend anyone at FAS, I am only trying to raise a genuine concern with my all time favorite amp model on the world greatest amp sim device.
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I mean, I think Cliff's explanation about the input trim was pretty clear on its simulating the Vol 1 knob or whatever on the MK. Just because the gain structure isn't imitated exactly by Page 1 controls doesn't mean that it isn't completely imitated.

Mesa amps have so many damn knobs and switches, and people are begrudging Cliff some tweaks outside of master, level, drive, presence, treble, bass, and mid?
 
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