This is where you will eventually end up in the search for absolute perfection.Focal Grande Utopia EM Evo
^^THIS^^The traditional cab with Celestion FRFR speakers in it might be the issue if it’s not been adapted to support them in any way.
When I approached Zilla about building FRFR cabs they came up with a specific design that is ported and quite different internally from their standard 112.
The overall internal volume of the cab was adjusted in the direction of Celestions recommended design then tuned with a baffle and dampened with wadding in some specific way.
He also mentioned the ported design was somewhat critical to getting a good sound from this speaker type.
This is why I have not bothered with for example Genelecs with built in room correction, even though I really want that feature. Their system still has 4ms latency which is honestly not great for something like this when some cheap IR loader can manage 1ms.I've tested a lot of studio monitors in the last few weeks. Unfortunately, the really good ones also cost a lot. Until a few days ago, I was using KSD Audio C88s. These are really phenomenally good speakers. But they have one problem. Latency. As with so many monitors that have DSP built in. When monitoring and mixing, it's absolutely not a problem. But when playing, it is.
Dweezil Zappa gets a good sound using FRFR as you can see on these videos. He was using QSC. Some of the people on this forum have worked with Dweezil helping him dial in his sounds.
It's worth a try Cliff recommended years ago in this topic https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/amp-in-the-room.141579/Understand.
I normally play a real Friedman cabinet with GB/V30 mix. I have a bunch of YA and other IRs of this cabinet that I purchase online to be close to my real cabinet. Again the whole capture/mic/mic placement and room that the capture was done is the only variable I cannot control so maybe me shooting my own IRs of my own cabinet in my own space might be an idea that I never thought of.
Happy to oblige! Shall we limit this to “self powered” only or are folks open to analog amp/passive speaker combo’s? And are we talking floor wedges only or standard boxes?Curious what you think those options are. Xitone are working fine for me but ya'll got me curious.
I feel your pain. I bought and sold three AX8s and went thru a few FRFRs (including a couple of CLRs) for the same reason. I don't really have anything new to add to the above...lots of great advice. For me I think the change happened when I was forced to use IEMs or stop playing live because my hearing was taking a beating...tinnitus is pretty bad now. ANYWAY, Once I realized that what I was hearing (tube amp>cab>mic>IEM) was essentially the same, I bought my third AX8 and never looked back. The next step was to dial in my guitar for the PA rather than amp in the room...IOW to sound like it does when the audience hears it (again, the same sound as when I was using analog gear). Now with the Axe3 and FM9, I do the same and have refined things: So, I got nice studio monitors and a nice PA wedge (EV PXM-12MP), and between the two, I am able to dial in sounds that sound great to the audience. I use Out 1 for my IEM so I can fine tune the eq to me and Out 2 so I can fine tune the eq to FOH. These both have become set-and-forget. I don't tweak for different rooms...that for the engineer IMO.Ready to take up the tuba.
@macfly, how do you set your room up physically, with both studio monitors and the EV?I feel your pain. I bought and sold three AX8s and went thru a few FRFRs (including a couple of CLRs) for the same reason. I don't really have anything new to add to the above...lots of great advice. For me I think the change happened when I was forced to use IEMs or stop playing live because my hearing was taking a beating...tinnitus is pretty bad now. ANYWAY, Once I realized that what I was hearing (tube amp>cab>mic>IEM) was essentially the same, I bought my third AX8 and never looked back. The next step was to dial in my guitar for the PA rather than amp in the room...IOW to sound like it does when the audience hears it (again, the same sound as when I was using analog gear). Now with the Axe3 and FM9, I do the same and have refined things: So, I got nice studio monitors and a nice PA wedge (EV PXM-12MP), and between the two, I am able to dial in sounds that sound great to the audience. I use Out 1 for my IEM so I can fine tune the eq to me and Out 2 so I can fine tune the eq to FOH. These both have become set-and-forget. I don't tweak for different rooms...that for the engineer IMO.
As a bonus, it sounds great in the room too. It's not a 412 in terms of "moving air," but, especially in a band situation, I think it sounds BETTER than my amp/cab did...because I can fix things I couldn't in my analog rig. Recently I'm trying to lean back toward some of those imperfections but not all the way...it helps it sound a little more analog.
Finally a cool thing about the EV wedge: it has a "monitor 2" setting that shaves the frequency range down, giving a more cab-like quality. I have already done this in the cab block, but it does give a quick/easy option to fine tune on a gig. At the end of the day, I don't use it much because my patches are dialed in for the PA, and I'm listening thru IEM. 90% of gigs I don't use the speaker at all.
^^^^ This was my exact experience. Once I set the rig up with the band for volume and listened like I did in the studio through playback, it all came right for me. It is a different vibe. I can replicate it with my tube power amp and a couple of 4x12s, but have nowhere I can play at those sorts of volumes. For us non-arena-playing types, this has been the way. And it works from very small rooms to outdoor festival stages.Going from amps to modeling can be a shock to the system if you're trying to capture the same feel of the "amp in the room". I've said it before in other threads, but my 'aha moment' came when realized that modelers create a guitar sound, the same guitar sound you hear when listening to a CD.
I was listening to a Joe Satriani album at my PC and was thoroughly enjoying it as usual. One time in particular, it struck me as odd that I wasn't thinking that the guitar didn't sound right because the amps weren't in the room with me, it was just good music with great guitar tones. It dawned on me that this is the sound that the AX8 (at the time) was creating.
I was using an amp and cab to power the AX8 but was not really sold on the tones the tones I was getting at home. After listening to the album, I plugged the AX8 into my interface and attempted to create some of the tones I was hearing and wouldn't you know it, I was able to get pretty close! I stopped chasing the AITR sound and began experiencing my guitar tones as recorded sounds. Wrapping my head around this 'philosophy' was a breakthrough for me and really opened the potential of amp modeling, making it much more enjoyable. It's been well over 5 years since I used an amp and cab for any reason, I get everything I need from my Axe III/FM3 through studio monitors.
Thanks for the mention, now you have given me the need to check the mentioned results of the combination of output sources. Got to love the routing options with the ax3!!I understand DL has the benefit of a $XXXXXXXX PA system to make their tone sound glorious but those tones had to be captured through a smaller system by the guitar techs. I know Phil uses a CLR onstage as Seb does not use in-ears and the Viv uses an Engl Cab on stage for the feel but the FOH is what is producing the sounds with the IR's. I have done your approach with running a real cabinet with no IR's and a FRFR with IRs to blend both worlds with good results. In the end the traditional guitar cabinet was the body of the sound and the FRFR with IRs was just there for taste and coloring. Again, fun solution to make a quick W/D or WDW rig.
… why wouldn't it also sound great via a high quality FRFR?
That's not what Monitor 2 mode is... It's actually the flattest EQ.Finally a cool thing about the EV wedge: it has a "monitor 2" setting that shaves the frequency range down, giving a more cab-like quality.
I'm no help to you there. My monitors are just sitting on a couple of pieces of furniture but not appropriately placed (one is a little higher than the other, ports are line of sight with my ears LOL). So I'm sure that could be better. I'm a slob, so the wedge just goes where ever it can, but usually to my left and on the floor. I do occasionally raise it to check that coupling isn't a factor. Sounds I'm getting are working well for sound guys...they just do the same setups they do for a mic'd cab...low cut +/- 80Hz and high cut +/- 8K...the better of the guys we work with says he usually pulls down 1K slightly to keep guitars out of the vocals.@macfly, how do you set your room up physically, with both studio monitors and the EV?
In my similar setup, I put the EVs behind me, at the opposite end of the (not very big) room from the monitors and computer. I'm noticing that the EVs sound brighter when I'm facing them than when they're shooting at the back of my head. (They're on low poles.) That's not a surprise, that's how ears work.
I'm reluctant to put them in the studio monitor end, out of concern that they're big enough to affect the room response, but I don't see a way to avoid both that and the back-of-my-head thing.