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Is it me or are others in the same boat?

Alainarose

Inspired
I have been a Fractal user since the day the Standard came out many moons ago and now have an AXE 3. My question is that I for some reason cannot get along with FRFR solutions or even studio monitors running IR's. I love the AXE 3 tone with IR's when using headphones and love the AXE 3 tone when playing through traditional guitar cabinets with the CAB sims turned off.

I have tried numerous brands of FRFR solutions from Xitone to Friedman to the newer Celestion FRFR traditional guitar speakers and I can get these to sound glorious when l play extremely quiet but once I turn the volume up to a stage level, the whole thing sounds boxy and fizzy and not right. When I run through traditional guitar cabinets, the sound it absolutely huge and ballsy but not so much with FRFR and IR's.

I am extremely familiar with all of the tricks to cut the high end and low end, etc and have watched numerous tutorials from Leon Todd, to Cooper Carter, Mark Day and others and I cannot get this part of the equation to work for me no matter what I try. I have purchase numerous IR packs from York Audio and others to see if these make a difference and have even purchased IR packs to match my traditional Friedman cabinet running GB/V30s to see if I could use the real cabinet as a benchmark tone reference and I am failing miserably.

I understand the Fletcher Munsion curve and how it affects tone and lower volumes as opposed to loud volumes but how does a patch with my traditional guitar cabinets sound awesome at low volumes and even more awesome at band volumes, but my FRFR/IR patches do not translate the same way? I understand the IR's are a capture of a sound but I sure would like to be able to utilize the FRFR and IR's like many others on this site and many of the biggest touring bands out there such as Neal Schon, Def Leppard, and many others.

Ready to take up the tuba.
 

mtb

Inspired
I played through studio monitors for years, trying tons of different IRs, settings, etc. I recently bought a power amp and cabinet after years of telling myself I should give it a try. So far, I could not be happier.
 

Greg Ferguson

Axe-Master
I have tried numerous brands of FRFR solutions from Xitone to Friedman to the newer Celestion FRFR traditional guitar speakers and I can get these to sound glorious when l play extremely quiet but once I turn the volume up to a stage level, the whole thing sounds boxy and fizzy and not right. When I run through traditional guitar cabinets, the sound it absolutely huge and ballsy but not so much with FRFR and IR's.
That's the exact symptom of Fletcher-Munson affecting you when EQing at low volume. You increase the ends to balance the mids, then, when you turn up the volume the result is you have too many lows and highs.

You have to EQ an FRFR at the volume you're going to play at.

Fletcher-Munson and Fighting extended frequencies and Fletcher-Munson are the key.
 

Alainarose

Inspired
That's the exact symptom of Fletcher-Munson affecting you when EQing at low volume. You increase the ends to balance the mids, then, when you turn up the volume the result is you have too many lows and highs.

You have to EQ an FRFR at the volume you're going to play at.

Fletcher-Munson and Fighting extended frequencies and Fletcher-Munson are the key.
I get that but even when I am at a higher volume with FRFR's and IRs I still cannot seem to get it to sound right. Always sounds either too harsh or too boxy or stiff. I try to mix multiple IR's so one will add in or take away from another to get the sound to be full.

What confuses me is why does a traditional guitar cabinet sound good at whisper volumes on a patch and then when turned up to band volume it sounds even better with nothing but the overall volume changed? One would think the FRFR/IR solution would react the same way.

WIth headphones, I can get a great sound but I also have my cans at a low volume. With IR's I tend to always block the high end down to 7500 or even 6500 to take away the harshness and block off some on the bass side if needed.
 

Alainarose

Inspired
I played through studio monitors for years, trying tons of different IRs, settings, etc. I recently bought a power amp and cabinet after years of telling myself I should give it a try. So far, I could not be happier.
Well you sound like me. I just hate having half of the AXE 3 that I truly cannot take advantage of. Mind you, I don't play out but still would like to run IRs with FRFR's for a completely different tonal variety. Attached is a picture of my current rig. I normally use the AXE 3 in 4CM with my Friedman head and cabinets running into a Boss WAZE TAE. The first cabinet is loaded with Celestion FX12 FRFR speakers and gets powered by the WAZA TAE. One would think I should be able to get a massive tone that sounds good from a 412 loaded with FX12 speakers running IR's?
 

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mtb

Inspired
Well you sound like me. I just hate having half of the AXE 3 that I truly cannot take advantage of. Mind you, I don't play out but still would like to run IRs with FRFR's for a completely different tonal variety. Attached is a picture of my current rig. I normally use the AXE 3 in 4CM with my Friedman head and cabinets running into a Boss WAZE TAE. The first cabinet is loaded with Celestion FX12 FRFR speakers and gets powered by the WAZA TAE. One would think I should be able to get a massive tone that sounds good from a 412 loaded with FX12 speakers running IR's?
For me, I think it was an easier transition, as I mainly play high gain. A Mesa with V30s is often a cab used for many of the high gain heads I use. I don’t see it as a disadvantage at all, I see it as the solution that works for me. Some may not see it that way and want to utilize everything possible and I think it depends on your needs.
 

Rajnar

Inspired
I get that but even when I am at a higher volume with FRFR's and IRs I still cannot seem to get it to sound right. Always sounds either too harsh or too boxy or stiff. I try to mix multiple IR's so one will add in or take away from another to get the sound to be full.

What confuses me is why does a traditional guitar cabinet sound good at whisper volumes on a patch and then when turned up to band volume it sounds even better with nothing but the overall volume changed? One would think the FRFR/IR solution would react the same way.

WIth headphones, I can get a great sound but I also have my cans at a low volume. With IR's I tend to always block the high end down to 7500 or even 6500 to take away the harshness and block off some on the bass side if needed.
You might try using the new option of turning on the plate suppressor diodes to eliminate some fizz, and cutting the low cab frequency much higher than you'd expect with your FRFR speakers. Plus you've got the speaker "thump," "drive," and "compliance" control to experiment with.
 

JoKeR III

Fractal Fanatic
Going from amps to modeling can be a shock to the system if you're trying to capture the same feel of the "amp in the room". I've said it before in other threads, but my 'aha moment' came when realized that modelers create a guitar sound, the same guitar sound you hear when listening to a CD.

I was listening to a Joe Satriani album at my PC and was thoroughly enjoying it as usual. One time in particular, it struck me as odd that I wasn't thinking that the guitar didn't sound right because the amps weren't in the room with me, it was just good music with great guitar tones. It dawned on me that this is the sound that the AX8 (at the time) was creating.

I was using an amp and cab to power the AX8 but was not really sold on the tones I was getting at home. After listening to the album, I plugged the AX8 into my interface and attempted to create some of the tones I was hearing and wouldn't you know it, I was able to get pretty close! I stopped chasing the AITR sound and began experiencing my guitar tones as recorded sounds. Wrapping my head around this 'philosophy' was a breakthrough for me and really opened the potential of amp modeling, making it much more enjoyable. It's been well over 5 years since I used an amp and cab for any reason, I get everything I need from my Axe III/FM3 through studio monitors.
 
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Bioloop

Member
I get it with the FRFR options, I just could not get it to sound the way I wanted @ higher volumes so I went with a Matrix amp and real 4x12 cabs. . . problem solved there. I think once you get use to playing an actual cab in the room, the FRFR option just doesn't cut it ...My opinion only...

As far as studio monitors, my advice is to stop dialing in your tones with only headphones. The Axe3 is great in a recording direct setting with an IR at 65-85 db on decent studio monitors. I would suggest recording a DI & tracking patch with your DAW session items. drums, bass, etc and re-amp the DI in the context of the mix with the Fractal tweaking your patch to taste.
Worked great for me ..
Cheers
 
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4406cuda

Inspired
Going from amps to modeling can be a shock to the system if you're trying to capture the same feel of the "amp in the room". I've said it before in other threads, but my 'aha moment' came when realized that modelers create a guitar sound, the same guitar sound you hear when listening to a CD.

I was listening to a Joe Satriani album at my PC and was thoroughly enjoying it as usual. One time in particular, it struck me as odd that I wasn't thinking that the guitar didn't sound right because the amps weren't in the room with me, it was just good music with great guitar tones. It dawned on me that this is the sound that the AX8 (at the time) was creating.

I was using an amp and cab to power the AX8 but was not really sold on the tones the tones I was getting. After listening to the album, I plugged the AX8 into my interface and attempted to create some of the tones I was hearing and wouldn't you know it, I was able to get pretty close! I stopped chasing the AITR sound and began experiencing my guitar tones as recorded sounds. Wrapping my head around this 'philosophy' was a breakthrough for me and really opened the potential of amp modeling, making it much more enjoyable. It's been well over 5 years since I used an amp and cab for any reason, I get everything I need from my Axe III/FM3 through studio monitors.

A lot of people use need to use the Axe-FX in a traditional band setting where they need an amp in the room or on stage.
 

unix-guy

Legend!
I've said it before in other threads, but my 'aha moment' came when realized that modelers create a guitar sound, the same guitar sound you hear when listening to a CD.
Exactly this... I've said the same thing numerous times over the years.

If you can wrap your head around that it all becomes clear.

Nobody but you (and maybe 1 bandmate on stage) will ever hear the real amp / cab from the same perspective as you... You can hear what FOH and the audience hears instead.

The tones we've all chased forever are all recordings, not a cab in the room...
 

dr bonkers

Fractal Fanatic
Vendor
For me it's about making eq moves at gig volume whether using a traditional guitar cab, studio monitoring, or FRFR. It should sound different at lower volumes, just like it would with your real amp. If you are doing eq moves at gig volume, it shouldn't sound boxy. If it does, you are using the wrong IR files, then just like if you paired the wrong cab and mic when prepping your rig for FOH or recording mixes.
 

Bruce Sokolovic

Fractal Fanatic
your never going to get a FRFR to sound like a guitar cab. When you mic the guitar cab, your audience hears the same FRFR sound you hear anyway. The guitar cab is strictly for you and monitoring. If it matters to you, do what you like best. For me, I can dig whatever I hear out of a wedge and go with that. The mission is for the audience to like everything. As long as what I hear is somewhat acceptable, Im good. It doesn’t have to be “the best” solution.
 
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