Is it me or are others in the same boat?

My best experiences have been with a 2x12 behind me fed pre-cab block and a feed to FOH with a 2x12 IR.

Everyone said it sounded great in the house and I loved the feel and tone on stage.

Bonus, I was able to do some fun stereo effects for the house that probably only 1% of attendees noticed.
 
your never going to get a FRFR to sound like a guitar cab. When you mic the guitar cab, your audience hears the same FRFR sound you hear anyway. The guitar cab is strictly for you and monitoring. If it matters to you, do what you like best. For me, I can dig whatever I hear out of a wedge and go with that. The mission is for the audience to like everything. As long as what I hear is somewhat acceptable, Im good. It doesn’t have to be “the best” solution.
Is this right? How does a microphone create extra frequencies beyond what the amp and guitar cab can reproduce? (Objective question, not being snarky. If I don’t understand something, then I ask for additional information.)
 
Is this right? How does a microphone create extra frequencies beyond what the amp and guitar cab can reproduce? (Objective question, not being snarky. If I don’t understand something, then I ask for additional information.)
It’s a good question. My understanding of it is a microphones position greatly influences what frequencies will be better presented and to a much lesser degree, the construction and type of microphone. Your ears will hear the full range of a guitar cab many feet away from it. A close miced cab, position depending will present a much more limited band. I’d say the close mic doesn’t create extra frequencies, but limits and hypes disproportionately due to not hearing the entire cab as intended in a room.

If I have this wrong, someone correct me but from micing my own cabs in the past (something I really do not miss to be honest) this has been my observation.
 
It’s a good question. My understanding of it is a microphones position greatly influences what frequencies will be better presented and to a much lesser degree, the construction and type of microphone. Your ears will hear the full range of a guitar cab many feet away from it. A close miced cab, position depending will present a much more limited band. I’d say the close mic doesn’t create extra frequencies, but limits and hypes disproportionately due to not hearing the entire cab as intended in a room.

If I have this wrong, someone correct me but from micing my own cabs in the past (something I really do not miss to be honest) this has been my observation.
Ok I understand what you were saying. It wasn't that the audience hears the full Hz spectrum of an FRFR speaker when a guitar cab is mic'd. You were writing about mic-positioning, selecting some frequencies over others - an art I have never learned. Thank you for the explanation.

I had two early experiences with FRFR speaker cabs.
1) When I bought my first AxeFX (an XL+ that was meant to replace a Kemper, which was meant to not be a Helix, as well as to model my collection of amps), I just couldn't hold with different FRFRs I was trying. Sounded strange to me, so I kept using my guitar cabs powered by a really nice QSC ss amp.
2) My oldest friend and other guitarist had bought a Helix and was using an FRFR. He sounded strange in rehearsals - and musician-people at gigs, who know him well and love his playing, were quietly making "something smells wrong" nose-faces. After months of brotherly arguing, he discovered the ss amp and guitar speaker route on his own stayed there.

Of course, we also send our modelers' main output to FOH - we don't mic our cabs. We don't play arena rock. We play small, larger, large, and outdoor venues. All this said, sometimes I miss playing through my Marshalls. Don't get me wrong: the AxeFX III guarantees a great sound every time, and real amps don't always sound the same night after night. But the sure-fire way to get AITR is with an amp in the room.
 
I have a friend who has two for his FOH system. They are insanely good. I’d love to have some for my FRFRs.
The sound man for one of my old bands used to work for Meyer, so he would bring Meyer cabs for FOH. I remember thinking that our system with EV cabs sounded good; then Pete hooked up the Meyers and it was like “Holy sh*t, what just happened?” Yes, at least 3x better, possibly 5x. Crazy good, extreme clarity with massive punch.
 
I spent years trying to make my guitar rig sound like what I heard on recordings not realizing, the amp in the room sound is not what you hear on a record.

Going to FRFR was the best decision I ever made for guitar other than the Axe.
Do you them live on-stage, in addition to going FOH?
 
  • When you ask the Axe3 to be a head and power it through an actual cab, you get an awesome cab sound
  • When you ask the Axe3 to model an entire recording chain including a microphone, and then run that into a full-range speaker in a plastic box, you do not get an awesome cab sound

What is so confusing here? Why are there so many threads on this? If you played a CD of Appetite for Destruction's guitar master tracks through a PA, no one in their right mind would be saying "why doesn't that sound identical to a roaring Marshall stack?" It's a recording. The amplification mechanism is totally different. A guitar cab takes your head off in front of it and sounds thumpy to the side. It doesn't do much over 8kHz, and what it does is weird. It's a brutal, low-fidelity, antiquated way to make things louder. If you want that, use that. You can paint a Tesla Plum Crazy Purple, but ain't gonna do what a 1971 Hemi Challenger R/T does.
 
Yup.
  • When you ask the Axe3 to be a head and power it through an actual cab, you get an awesome cab sound
  • When you ask the Axe3 to model an entire recording chain including a microphone, and then run that into a full-range speaker in a plastic box, you do not get an awesome cab sound

What is so confusing here? Why are there so many threads on this? If you played a CD of Appetite for Destruction's guitar master tracks through a PA, no one in their right mind would be saying "why doesn't that sound identical to a roaring Marshall stack?" It's a recording. The amplification mechanism is totally different. A guitar cab takes your head off in front of it and sounds thumpy to the side. It doesn't do much over 8kHz, and what it does is weird. It's a brutal, low-fidelity, antiquated way to make things louder. If you want that, use that. You can paint a Tesla Plum Crazy Purple, but ain't gonna do what a 1971 Hemi Challenger R/T does.
Yup!
 
Low effort comment: I really like my Red Sound Elis.8 and they give me a bit of an "in the room" feel. Certainly not like a 4x12 cab, but they are 8" speakers...

I do occasionally wonder if the MF-10 would have been better, but I wanted to try a stereo setup and the Elis.8 was more in my budget. Would love to shoot them out at some point, but not easy ones to "just try" in the States.
 
I have been a Fractal user since the day the Standard came out many moons ago and now have an AXE 3. My question is that I for some reason cannot get along with FRFR solutions or even studio monitors running IR's. I love the AXE 3 tone with IR's when using headphones and love the AXE 3 tone when playing through traditional guitar cabinets with the CAB sims turned off.

I have tried numerous brands of FRFR solutions from Xitone to Friedman to the newer Celestion FRFR traditional guitar speakers and I can get these to sound glorious when l play extremely quiet but once I turn the volume up to a stage level, the whole thing sounds boxy and fizzy and not right. When I run through traditional guitar cabinets, the sound it absolutely huge and ballsy but not so much with FRFR and IR's.

I am extremely familiar with all of the tricks to cut the high end and low end, etc and have watched numerous tutorials from Leon Todd, to Cooper Carter, Mark Day and others and I cannot get this part of the equation to work for me no matter what I try. I have purchase numerous IR packs from York Audio and others to see if these make a difference and have even purchased IR packs to match my traditional Friedman cabinet running GB/V30s to see if I could use the real cabinet as a benchmark tone reference and I am failing miserably.

I understand the Fletcher Munsion curve and how it affects tone and lower volumes as opposed to loud volumes but how does a patch with my traditional guitar cabinets sound awesome at low volumes and even more awesome at band volumes, but my FRFR/IR patches do not translate the same way? I understand the IR's are a capture of a sound but I sure would like to be able to utilize the FRFR and IR's like many others on this site and many of the biggest touring bands out there such as Neal Schon, Def Leppard, and many others.

Ready to take up the tuba.
FWIW, I’ve never played through a consumer grade FRFR cab that sounded “right.” They’re normally boxy in the mids or have boosted top end. When I listen to a real mic’d cab through my studio monitors and A/B it with an IR, it’s identical, so I think it comes down to the color the FRFR cab adds to your tone.

If your studio monitors aren’t sounding good either, I imagine you’re getting a lot of reflections in your room that can enhance harsh top end. I HIGHLY recommend investing in some room treatment to smooth everything out. Your listening environment plays a massive part in your overall experience.

Since Meyer cabs are pricy, here’s a potential solution that might help you with what you already have that will keep your direct line sounding good (what you hear in your headphones) while making your FRFR cab sound better.

You’ll want to route your FRFR cab to Output 2. Try creating a preset that’s just Input 1 going to Output 2. Connect your phone or run a line out from your DAW into the Axe’s Input 1 so you can play music (something well-recorded that you’re familiar with) through your FRFR cab.

On your Axe, go to Setup - Global Settings and page over to Output 2 EQ. While listening at a decent volume, make EQ adjustments to get the music sounding balanced and neutral. You make need to cut mids and/or highs and boost low end. Once it’s sounding good, raise the volume and see if you need to make further adjustments. This is basically “tuning” your FRFR cab the same way a FOH/Monitor guy tunes a PA.

Now that it’s sounding good, try one of your presets and see how it translates.

As others have mentioned, a 1x12 cab isn’t going to hit the same way a 4x12 will, so you’re listening to it more like a floor monitor giving you the mic’d signal rather than hearing a roaring 4x12 behind you.

I hope this helps, and sorry for the long post. 😬
 
I feel the same way as the OP. Nothing sounds as good to me as through amp and cab. Yes, I know it's apples and oranges. I just don't get anywhere close to the satisfaction I get through amp and cap when using FRFR. I've tried shooting an IR of my actual cab but doesn't help much. And again, yes I know it's apples and oranges.
 
Is this right? How does a microphone create extra frequencies beyond what the amp and guitar cab can reproduce? (Objective question, not being snarky. If I don’t understand something, then I ask for additional information.)
And it’s a valid question, especially if you consider all of the factors involved. Every mic has its own “sound” and, yes, it can create overtones (harmonics) that aren’t readily apparent in the source device — that’s precisely why engineers use lots of different mics. Notice that phrase “readily apparent” — as the sound you perceive will always be affected by your position relative to the source and the myriad reflections that occur between you and it. There’s also the damping effect of the air itself between the source and the listener — just like the way(s) in which a rock dropped into still water creates ripples that become smaller and less defined with distance.

I could go on and on and on describing just some of the physics involved. Short answer: it’s all about what’s doing the “listening” and where it’s doing it from.
 
Here are my thoughts on this after a fair amount of back and forth and testing. First to describe my scenario the band I play with uses traditional amps and I am the oddball with the Axe. I have tried PA cabs and FRFR and found that it just doesn't sound right in the stage mix to my ears. We are playing medium sized clubs 500-700 person capacity and I flip back and forth between IEMS and floor monitors depending on the setup and perceived competency of the sound guys. I have found that the easiest way for me is to run real cabs on stage and send the IR signal to FOH. This way the stage sounds right and if I am not in ears sounds just like the stages I have played my whole life. I put EQs in place on the output I pull before the cabs so I can dial them in to be close to the IRs I am using, all powered by a tiny SD PS170. This rig is the best of both worlds for me and for the rest of the group. FWIW this has been the best configuration I have come up with for performing with the AXE. In practice we use headphones and direct sounds great.
 
As I read some extolling the virtues of Meyer gear, do keep in mind that one reason they are super-dooper expensive is that they’re built to withstand being slammed around on stages and into a truck by tired crews night after night after night — and still be reliable AND sounding great. If physical abuse doesn’t happen in your world on a regular basis there are less robust (expensive) solutions that give up nothing sonically…
 
I played through studio monitors for years, trying tons of different IRs, settings, etc. I recently bought a power amp and cabinet after years of telling myself I should give it a try. So far, I could not be happier.

While I still play through headphones at home, I've given up on trying to make a tone translate from headphones to on stage. And I've never found a powered FRFR cab I liked. For bass I use a Crest pro-lite into a set of fearful 15/6s, and for guitar a crown into a dusky 2x12 without cab blocks (had a matrix but it shit the bed).
 
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As I read some extolling the virtues of Meyer gear, do keep in mind that one reason they are super-dooper expensive is that they’re built to withstand being slammed around on stages and into a truck by tired crews night after night after night — and still be reliable AND sounding great. If physical abuse doesn’t happen in your world on a regular basis there are less robust (expensive) solutions that give up nothing sonically…
Curious what you think those options are. Xitone are working fine for me but ya'll got me curious.
 
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