Input gain and metering

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Admin M@ said:
I think the Input controls are perfect as they are. Also, no one has mentioned the recently added INPUT 1 GAIN control in SETUP: I/O: Input, which is an important part of this conversation. By the way, I know a guy who's been on the cover of every guitar magazine ever who sometimes likes to overdrive the A/D input of the Axe-Fx because he likes how it sounds.
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Now, when you guys change the converters for anything "better" people will start to complain... :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:
 
Admin M@ said:
I think the Input controls are perfect as they are. Also, no one has mentioned the recently added INPUT 1 GAIN control in SETUP: I/O: Input, which is an important part of this conversation. By the way, I know a guy who's been on the cover of every guitar magazine ever who sometimes likes to overdrive the A/D input of the Axe-Fx because he likes how it sounds.
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Yep I'm pretty familiar with that: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/input-gain-setting.161624/

:).
 
Normalizing the input signal for the Axe FX would be a very bad idea. That's a major shortcoming for most other modelers. I sure as hell don't want my Strat with single coils to drive an amp the same way my Les Paul with hot humbuckers does. That would destroy a large part of the character that makes each unique.
 
mr_fender said:
Normalizing the input signal for the Axe FX would be a very bad idea. That's a major shortcoming for most other modelers. I sure as hell don't want my Strat with single coils to drive an amp the same way my Les Paul with hot humbuckers does. That would destroy a large part of the character that makes each unique.
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No modeler forces you to change the input gain when switching guitars. But as I mentioned earlier, I understand this point and I'm not trying to say it's wrong. I'm just identifying a competing factor that might be worth considering. Maybe there's a way to achieve both objectives of faithful fidelity to the original tube amp and the benefits of a nominal input signal strength.

For example, when you create a preset, what if it could be tagged with the guitar signal strength. When you share it with somebody, that tag may be used to optionally adjust the preset to match the signal coming from their guitar. I'm pretty sure that would make the experience of the first time user browsing factory presets more satisfying. It could also help improve the preset sharing experience among AxeFX users.
 
The Kemper is all about sharing presets/profiles, and for the most part people just plug and play. It doesn't seem to hinder its preset sharing experience for users.

And you can't avoid presets sounding different with different guitars. It's not solved with gain matching as some guitars are tubby and some are thin, etc. And besides, I think guitarists rather like hearing the sound of their guitars within presets.
 
mr_fender said:
Normalizing the input signal for the Axe FX would be a very bad idea. That's a major shortcoming for most other modelers. I sure as hell don't want my Strat with single coils to drive an amp the same way my Les Paul with hot humbuckers does. That would destroy a large part of the character that makes each unique.
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This guy gets it.
 
yeky83 said:
The Kemper is all about sharing presets/profiles, and for the most part people just plug and play. It doesn't seem to hinder its preset sharing experience for users.
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Sure, and that's exactly my point. The Kemper doesn't have a compensating decrease in gain after the ADC when you turn up the input sensitivity like the AxeFX. That means the AxeFX behaves more like the original tube amp than the Kemper. But it also means presets/profiles are easier to share on the Kemper.

Both approaches are valid. As I mentioned above though, maybe there's a way to get the best of both.
 
GlennO said:
Sure, and that's exactly my point. The Kemper doesn't have a compensating decrease in gain after the ADC when you turn up the input sensitivity like the AxeFX. That means the AxeFX behaves more like the original tube amp than the Kemper. But it also means presets/profiles are easier to share on the Kemper.

Both approaches are valid. As I mentioned above though, maybe there's a way to get the best of both.
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Everything in this post is wrong. Think about it.
 
I get the feeling you think I'm saying something is wrong with the AxeFX. I'm not. In fact for the stated objective of behaving like the original tube amp, I agree that it's exactly correct. I'm just tossing out ideas for discussion about ways to improve the preset sharing experience, preferably without giving up the current behavior.
 
GlennO said:
Sure, and that's exactly my point. The Kemper doesn't have a compensating decrease in gain after the ADC when you turn up the input sensitivity like the AxeFX. That means the AxeFX behaves more like the original tube amp than the Kemper. But it also means presets/profiles are easier to share on the Kemper.

Both approaches are valid. As I mentioned above though, maybe there's a way to get the best of both.
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My point was that people happily plug & play with the Kemper. If you just plug & play into anything, it's behaving like an amp, and so it is with the Kemper.

(The Kemper does have input sensitivity and makeup gain -ish controls with the Clean/Distortion Sense parameters, but it's funky in typical Kemper fashion. AFAICT most people don't touch it, and if they do it's mostly just to lower Clean Sense a bit to stop clipping the input.)
 
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Admin M@ said:
I think the Input controls are perfect as they are. Also, no one has mentioned the recently added INPUT 1 GAIN control in SETUP: I/O: Input, which is an important part of this conversation. By the way, I know a guy who's been on the cover of every guitar magazine ever who sometimes likes to overdrive the A/D input of the Axe-Fx because he likes how it sounds.
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jack butler plays an axefx?
 
GlennO said:
In the other thread about adjusting input sensitivity, I started thinking about the consequences for preset sharing. It seems to me the goals for the input sensitivity adjustment are:

1) Have a full dynamic range to the ADC. In other words, your signal should be as loud as possible to minimize noise introduced by the ADC.
2) Avoid clipping. You don't want it so loud that it clips.

What if there was an option to just have a single gain adjustment before the ADC, and a meter that shows if you clip? In other words, have an option to avoid the compensation that is causing confusion and have a meter that lights up the top LED only when you clip?


This would have a significant benefit: if all AxeFX users adjusted the input levels so the meter showed a strong signal just short of clipping, this new design would mean all AxeFX users would be using a similar signal strength at the start of the digital processing chain. This would make it a lot easier to get good sounds when playing the factory presets or shared presets because everyone would be using a signal strength that matches what the preset authors used. As it is currently, the compensation gain ensures everyone is using different input signal strengths and getting inconsistent results when using the factory or shared presets.

Look at the confusion that occurred when Cooper demonstrated factory presets. That revealed that he gets very different sounds out of those presets than many other people because of differing input signal strengths. I wouldn't be surprised if getting rid of the compensation gain and adjusting input gain to a nominal level as I suggest above would lead to a revelation for many people when they try the factory presets (or shared presets) again with this new system.

People always like to complain about factory presets and there are other factors of course that will affect how a preset sounds with a particular guitar, but offering a way to avoid the compensation gain would at least put everyone on a level playing field when it comes to input signal strength.

In summary, the current design is perfect for faithfully emulating the original tube amp. I wouldn't presume to suggest changing that. But, perhaps there's a way to supplement the design with an option to avoid the compensating gain to help with preset sharing.
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Is this capability not similar to what the new input gain control is providing / being used for? I'm reading posts in the "implemented - input gain control" thread (wishlist) from people using it to equalize the signal from different guitars at the beginning of their signal chain (though I guess they could do that before just not globally across all presets)

I can see how this would help with preset sharing but I think there are so many other factors that contribute to the "why do others' presets never sound good for me" syndrome, correcting this one part of it may not solve that issue as a whole. There will still be many differences occuring between the patch author and the patch subscriber - ie:
  • Differences in guitar tonal qualities.
  • Differences in output equipment whether its headphones or frfr monitors or whatever.
  • differences in cables.
  • differences in rooms.
  • Differences in ears sensitivity to different frequencies. or in brains' perception of tone (unless they heard a sample of the patch in advance)
  • Differences in playing ability / technique (though I feel it would be great if every new patch could come with a dry reamp track, sample output, and input settings info to allow the patch subscriber to fairly exactly recreate, in their own Axefx, the same tone they heard on youtube or whereever (simply to prove that their axefx can indeed produce that sound locally - they can then venture into trying to recreate it with their own hands etc but having the sample elements in hand to analyze).
Personally - I find that if i get a patch dialed in for one guitar it never sounds as good with another guitar even if the 2 guitars have similar output levels. Maybe it's because I take a loooong time to dial in a preset with all the little tweaks relating back to what's coming in from my Sg. Substitute my Carvin for the Sg (similar output) and it sounds wrong. For the longest time I had a hate on for my Carvin DC127 but when I dialed in a patch using the Carvin with equal obsessive focus to how I do other patches with the Sg - it only sounds good with the Carvin - and so on.
 
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GlennO said:
For example, when you create a preset, what if it could be tagged with the guitar signal strength. When you share it with somebody, that tag may be used to optionally adjust the preset to match the signal coming from their guitar. I'm pretty sure that would make the experience of the first time user browsing factory presets more satisfying. It could also help improve the preset sharing experience among AxeFX users.
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I think this idea could be applied to the new Input 1 Gain control.

I don't think it makes sense with Input Level as that serves a different purpose.
 
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Not a fan of this idea. And it wouldn't even work. I would be dead against implementation.

In fact, there wouldn't be a pro left (I'm not a pro) who'd use FAS products anymore with this implemented. Nobody wants to have outboard devices mess automatically with their precious instrument's characteristics. Because that would be the case: whether I'd connect a low-output Telecaster, an EMG-equipped Schecter or a 20 dollar guitar for starters, the output level and therefore amp gain would be manipulated to be the same. Not acceptable.

The proposed idea is to adjust the instrument's output level, in the box, to get the same kind of gain "as the creator of the preset intended". That's a proposed change on global level, to solve a problem on preset level. That's where it already goes wrong, conceptually. And because the proposed change is global, it would affect everything else, including the user's own existing presets.

So is there a problem in fact? I don't think so. If users of 3rd party presets get confused because non-expected changes in gain, that's just part of the learning process and handling expectations. They'll cope and learn quickly that presets just don't sound exactly the same when used by others, gainwise and tonewise, just like amps don't sound the same with different guitars. And if they do want 100% guaranteed transferable sounds, perhaps they should look elsewhere for their My First Modelers.
 
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It's years ago that I had real amps on stage but I remember how that was. When changing guitars, I had to turn the gain knobs on some channels and maybe also bass and/or treble. The reason to adjust the gain on some channels is to keep the volume balanced between clean and distoterted sounds and keep up with the band's volume.
And still a Strat sounded like a Strat and a Paula sounded like a Paula, although the compensation. That's normal.

The other way around, playong at lower volume because your pickups are weaker, that's BS, you always have to be loud enough to play with bass and drums, right?

And that's where modelers fall short. When changing guitars you'd need to be able to make these fast adjustments with direct access and taking affect on all presets.
You can program the axe-fx the way you get some instant access controls over all of your presets using global blocks and modifiers and I did that, it works like a charm.
But it's not there right from the start. Don't say the new Input 1 gain control is useless. It fills a gap.
 
666was999 said:
It's years ago that I had real amps on stage but I remember how that was. When changing guitars, I had to turn the gain knobs on some channels and maybe also bass and/or treble. The reason to adjust the gain on some channels is to keep the volume balanced between clean and distoterted sounds and keep up with the band's volume.
And still a Strat sounded like a Strat and a Paula sounded like a Paula, although the compensation. That's normal.

The other way around, playong at lower volume because your pickups are weaker, that's BS, you always have to be loud enough to play with bass and drums, right?

And that's where modelers fall short. When changing guitars you'd need to be able to make these fast adjustments with direct access and taking affect on all presets.
You can program the axe-fx the way you get some instant access controls over all of your presets using global blocks and modifiers and I did that, it works like a charm.
But it's not there right from the start. Don't say the new Input 1 gain control is useless. It fills a gap.
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Yes, the global gain feature is already in the box.
You just have to put a volume block right after Input block in every preset and set it as a global block.

When changing guitars, you can adjust the output level of the volume block in any preset and hit save. It will affect all your presets (that have that global block).
 
George Koerich said:
Yes, the global gain feature is already in the box.
You just have to put a volume block right after Input block in every preset and set it as a global block.

When changing guitars, you can adjust the output level of the volume block in any preset and hit save. It will affect all your presets (that have that global block).
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You don't... That is exactly what the recently added Input 1 Gain global control is for ;)
 
Admin M@ said:
I think the Input controls are perfect as they are. Also, no one has mentioned the recently added INPUT 1 GAIN control in SETUP: I/O: Input, which is an important part of this conversation. By the way, I know a guy who's been on the cover of every guitar magazine ever who sometimes likes to overdrive the A/D input of the Axe-Fx because he likes how it sounds.
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nvm
 
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