Input gain and metering

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Normalizing the input signal for the Axe FX would be a very bad idea. That's a major shortcoming for most other modelers. I sure as hell don't want my Strat with single coils to drive an amp the same way my Les Paul with hot humbuckers does. That would destroy a large part of the character that makes each unique.
Amen.

This is what YouTube does to the audio of all videos uploaded. It normalizes them and this compresses them. Then people say "your guitar demo sucks, it sounds so compressed." No, it was fine until YouTube "normalized" it.

I've had demos for TonePack videos (like Brit Rock Royalty #1) where some people go, that sounds good but it's still too compressed! But that's YOUTUBE normalizing the audio - it's not what I'm hearing on my speakers.

I make tutorial videos in Screenflow App (which I like) and when it first came out with multitrack capabilities, it was applying "normalizing" to everything by default with no OFF switch ( they are thinking it's people talking into a mic so why not).

I got the programmers on the line and explained my beautiful recorded guitar tone in the video was being destroyed by this. They got it and found way to turn it off or mitigate it.

So "no" to normalizing input. Just use input TRIM on a pedal or a Filter block o compensate for pickup strength hitting the amp. I use a 5.1db boost for a Strat to hit the amp model at level as a vintage humbucker does, for example. It works.
 
The post you are quoting is a misunderstanding of the suggestion this thread is about. See the reply that follows that post for the clarification. Nobody is suggesting taking away the faithful emulation of the tube amp. I'm only suggesting offering an option to do the same thing you are suggesting:
I use a 5.1db boost for a Strat to hit the amp model at level as a vintage humbucker does, for example. It works.

In any case, this issue was resolved several pages ago, so it's probably best to stop beating this dead horse.
 
Amen.

This is what YouTube does to the audio of all videos uploaded. It normalizes them and this compresses them. Then people say "your guitar demo sucks, it sounds so compressed." No, it was fine until YouTube "normalized" it.

I've had demos for TonePack videos (like Brit Rock Royalty #1) where some people go, that sounds good but it's still too compressed! But that's YOUTUBE normalizing the audio - it's not what I'm hearing on my speakers.

I make tutorial videos in Screenflow App (which I like) and when it first came out with multitrack capabilities, it was applying "normalizing" to everything by default with no OFF switch ( they are thinking it's people talking into a mic so why not).

I got the programmers on the line and explained my beautiful recorded guitar tone in the video was being destroyed by this. They got it and found way to turn it off or mitigate it.

So "no" to normalizing input. Just use input TRIM on a pedal or a Filter block o compensate for pickup strength hitting the amp. I use a 5.1db boost for a Strat to hit the amp model at level as a vintage humbucker does, for example. It works.
There's a way to avoid youtube's compression: make sure your audio doesn't exceed -14dB LUFS (iirc)
 
There's a way to avoid youtube's compression: make sure your audio doesn't exceed -14dB LUFS (iirc)

Oh my, no. YouTube will normalize, not compress, if you exceed their LUFS threshold. Also, this thread has nothing to do with compression.
 
Oh my, no. YouTube will normalize, not compress, if you exceed their LUFS threshold. Also, this thread has nothing to do with compression.
Well, I've heard mentioned a lot of times that streaming services also apply some limiting (aka compression) when a track is louder than their loudness reference but I don't know more than that, I might be wrong.
 
Well, I've heard mentioned a lot of times that streaming services also apply some limiting (aka compression) when a track is louder than their loudness reference but I don't know more than that, I might be wrong.

It sounds like there was a misunderstanding if somebody told you that, because that's not true. All of the streaming services will normalize, but will not do dynamic compression or limiting, based on the LUFS level. YouTube does data compression of course, but that's unrelated to the loudness. And, none of this is related to the topic of this thread :).
 
How about this...

Preset author places a defaulted compressor before the amp block and spins up the threshold so its not doing anything. With preset complete, author reduces the compressors threshold until a good spank barely bumps the meters. That's the tag.

The user then adjusts the input gain to the compressor until a good spank barely bumps the meters. Bypass the compressor and have at it.
 
This guy gets it.
Early on, I had a clean boost set up to push my Strat and Tele's level up into humbucker range, to help with switching guitars. The resulting sound was virtually identical to when I built a little FET booster and put it in a Strat years ago. IOW, it sounded like poo, because it drove the amp input hard, but the signal had a lot less mids and more trebles than a humbucker and ended up sounding splattery....
 
Early on, I had a clean boost set up to push my Strat and Tele's level up into humbucker range, to help with switching guitars. The resulting sound was virtually identical to when I built a little FET booster and put it in a Strat years ago. IOW, it sounded like poo, because it drove the amp input hard, but the signal had a lot less mids and more trebles than a humbucker and ended up sounding splattery....

Well, Cliff added the input gain feature for just this purpose, so if you disagree with that, you should probably take it up with him 😀.
 
How about this...

Preset author places a defaulted compressor before the amp block and spins up the threshold so its not doing anything. With preset complete, author reduces the compressors threshold until a good spank barely bumps the meters. That's the tag.

The user then adjusts the input gain to the compressor until a good spank barely bumps the meters. Bypass the compressor and have at it.

That’s the general idea, but something like the more automatic way of doing it I described above would probably be helpful.
 
Well, Cliff added the input gain feature for just this purpose, so if you disagree with that, you should probably take it up with him 😀.
The point was that the Axe responded just like the real life amps did. After that, I started making low and high output versions of my presets. Lately, I have been getting lower output humbucking pickups in the guitars that had hot ones, and adding series/parallel switching for the pickups to drop their output into the single coil range. My cleans and lightly crunchy tones are much better at lower output, and I can bump the output up for a bit more dirt and a more mid-focused sound when I want that.
 
Yes, the authenticity vs flexibility issue was discussed several pages back. It’s not an either/or situation. You should be able to have both in a digital modeler. There are pros and cons to both. Neither one is wrong. Nobody is being forced to use the global input gain control. If you don’t use it, the amp responds like the original tube amp. If you do use it, it can be quite useful. Austin Buddy mentioned above he finds it useful to apply a compensation for different guitars. There’s another thread at the moment that is discussing using multiple inputs as a way to apply compensation for different guitars. There are multiple correct viewpoints here.
 
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Yes, the authenticity vs flexibility issue was discussed several pages back. It’s not an either/or situation. You should be able to have both in a digital modeler. There are pros and cons to both. Neither one is wrong. Nobody is being forced to use the global input gain control. If you don’t use it, the amp responds like the original tube amp. If you do use it, it can be quite useful. Austin Buddy mentioned above he finds it useful to apply a compensation for different guitars. There’s another thread at the moment that is discussing using multiple inputs as a way to apply compensation for different guitars. There are multiple correct viewpoints here.
Yes. My attempt at compensating for the lower output pickups by adjusting the input's output level was sub-optimal. The Strat and Tele sound suffered when boosted with a flat boost. AB's level booster actually sounds pretty good, but by the time I got his Naked Amps pack last year, I had already started switching things to a lower output level, as I found that that solution worked best for me....
 
Well, I've heard mentioned a lot of times that streaming services also apply some limiting (aka compression) when a track is louder than their loudness reference but I don't know more than that, I might be wrong.
It sounds like there was a misunderstanding if somebody told you that, because that's not true. All of the streaming services will normalize, but will not do dynamic compression or limiting, based on the LUFS level. YouTube does data compression of course, but that's unrelated to the loudness. And, none of this is related to the topic of this thread :).

Yeah, I think some wires got crossed between "Audio dynamics compression" and "Video quality and data size compression". Youtube absolutely compressed the hell out of the video in terms of reducing quality and data size. Video and audio bitrates get compressed to lower the final filesize and data costs for youtube. This can definitely have an audible effect, and make some things sound way worse. There may even be a bit of audio dynamics compression involved in that, for instance because uploading in 24-bit or 32-bit audio would certainly be reduced to 16-bit.

But that's not the same thing as running an audio compression algorithm like you're used to with guitar and recording compressors to reduce the dynamic range, beyond their max level and sound level normalization processes.
 
The point was that the Axe responded just like the real life amps did. After that, I started making low and high output versions of my presets. Lately, I have been getting lower output humbucking pickups in the guitars that had hot ones, and adding series/parallel switching for the pickups to drop their output into the single coil range. My cleans and lightly crunchy tones are much better at lower output, and I can bump the output up for a bit more dirt and a more mid-focused sound when I want that.

I've been doing the same. I think parallel wired humbuckers are great.

I'm the guy who sort of kicked over this whole anthill originally, so I will take the time to clarify my position, FWIW.

Someone posted that they would like to see the stock presets improved, and the question arose as to in what way they could be improved. I chimed in at that point with a suggestion that an alternate set of presets be created for low output pickups.

My example was the Cooper Carter videos. I pointed out that up until that point I had thought many of the high gain presets were junk, they didn't work for me at all. After comparing my sound to the video, I figured out that the issue was simply the input level. Just by boosting my input level using the amp block input trim, I was getting very close the same tone with no other adjustments.

The thread derailed at that point unfortunately, much like this one has. But to be clear, I never suggested that the Axe normalize input levels to make all guitars and amps sound the same, nor do I expect my vintage output guitars to sound like a guitar with high output humbuckers, even with a lot of input trim.

As it turns out, Fractal gave the tool I needed with the global input trim. But I still wish there was a sound clip library so that I could hear what the preset makers were going for, since many of the presets are so input sensitive.
 
Related question: For guitar signal volume tuning (after AD conversion), is there any difference between using the following options before the preamp section (other than where they take effect in the signal chain)?

  • Global Input Trim
  • Amp Input Trim
  • Block Output Knobs

ie - is there any difference between increasing global input trim, and increasing the output of the IN1 block by the exact same amount? (Isuspect not, but not totally sure).
 
My example was the Cooper Carter videos. I pointed out that up until that point I had thought many of the high gain presets were junk, they didn't work for me at all. After comparing my sound to the video, I figured out that the issue was simply the input level. Just by boosting my input level using the amp block input trim, I was getting very close the same tone with no other adjustments.
The point I've made in this thread is that the input level adjustment alone may or may not get you very close to the tone the preset maker intended.
As it turns out, Fractal gave the tool I needed with the global input trim. But I still wish there was a sound clip library so that I could hear what the preset makers were going for, since many of the presets are so input sensitive.
The ability to attach clips on Axe Change is a great idea, and it would actually solve the issue of knowing what the preset maker intended.
 
Related question: For guitar signal volume tuning (after AD conversion), is there any difference between using the following options before the preamp section (other than where they take effect in the signal chain)?

  • Global Input Trim
  • Amp Input Trim
  • Block Output Knobs

ie - is there any difference between increasing global input trim, and increasing the output of the IN1 block by the exact same amount? (Isuspect not, but not totally sure).

Between the global input trump and the IN block output, there shouldn't be a difference in sound. It's just a difference in whether it's global or preset specific.

For the amp input trim, it's technically after the input buffer and input gain on the model, so it could have a different effect if the Axe Fx models the input buffer tube and lets you overdrive it before the input trim. But that might not be how the model works, so I'm not sure. https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/understanding-all-the-different-gain-controls.95018/


But the main difference is that the input trim on the amp happens after any other blocks between the input and the amp. Like a drive pedal for instance, would be hit with your normal input signal then the amp trim would boost or cut whatever that result is. So if a hot pickup makes a drive pedal breakup and a low output pickup doesn't that will still be different if you're using amp input trim.
 
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