Im sure im kicking a dead horse here...

[Greg Ferguson]

I understand there will be differences between headphones and monitors. I actually like my phones more than my monitors.

Case in point, i was watching Cooper Carter demoing the Petrucci Rig 2025. It sounded huge and crunchy. Just what i expected a Petrucci rig to sound like. When i played my Ibanez Prestige with DiMarzio pickups, the tone was more like a midgain tone with really nasal mids. Im ticking the red at 10%.

The tone has no balls and very little sustain.

You are describing symptoms of not enough volume, the Fletcher-Munson Effect in action, combined with using headphones which break the acoustic-coupling of the speaker and guitar at stage volume.

The Fletcher-Munson Effect describes how our brain perceives sound at low volume differently than at medium and high volume. Our hearing is more sensitive to midrange sounds at lower volumes but then begins to even out at ~90dB, stage volume. (That’s why we say to audition the factory presets at stage volume.)

Take off the headphones and route the sound through a speaker or speakers that are turned up. Acoustic-coupling doesn’t necessarily need a 1x12, it can work fine with desktop studio monitors, but the volume has to be high enough to begin shaking the strings. That’s another place where the sustain comes from, it’s not just the guitar’s construction or its components. And by raising the volume the sound will improve your ability to hear the lows and highs and will defeat the Fletcher-Munson effect.

[153] Because there's no string and body reinforcement. When you play through speakers the sound couples into the guitar body and strings. With headphones you don't get this so the sound is very sterile and lifeless.

Now, if you use speakers during recording and then playback through headphones it will sound fine.

[154] It's lack of acoustic reinforcement. I did a test a few years ago and I don't remember the actual numbers but having a speaker aimed at the guitar adds many dBs of power to the lower mids coming out of the guitar. IOW, if you measure the spectrum of the signal coming out of a guitar alone and then compare that to the signal coming out with a cab or monitor in proximity at a reasonable volume there are a LOT more lower mids with the speaker present. This results in a "thin" sound without the speaker.

[155] The problem with headphones is that there is no acoustic reinforcement of the guitar. There is zero coupling between the speakers (inside the headphones) and the guitar. Without that coupling, which is a type of positive feedback, the sound is lifeless, thin and harsh.

When your heroes recorded their guitar parts that weren't using headphones.

On "Appetite for Destruction" Slash recorded his guitar parts in the control room. To get even more coupling into the guitar a combo amp was in the control room with him pointed at the guitar. A volume pedal allowed him to adjust the volume of the combo amp so he could control the coupling. With the volume pedal all the way up he could get controlled feedback.

I've actually done tests comparing the spectrum out of the guitar when there is no coupling (i.e. monitors turned off) and with typical coupling (monitors loud or using a conventional cab). The boost in the low midrange is significant. I forget the actual numbers but it was at least several dB.

I did some studies years ago and having a speaker in proximity to the guitar actually changes the final tone considerably. I compared the frequency response with the amp in isolation to the frequency response with the amp in proximity and measured several dB difference in the lows and mids. It was clearly audible when the recordings were played back.

I use headphones almost all the time, but my final EQ step is on stage during sound check at stage volume, then I leave the EQ alone when I get home and use headphones again because I know the sound is not set up for headphones. I also use Ollo S5X headphones which are very flat and match the sound of my monitors well.

 

[unix-guy]

If we are talking about the preset from that video from Cooper that is 2 years old.

If so, firmware updates some will be a major factor...

 

[Brewce]

Is this related...? (speaker on bass drum of Shannon Forrest)

 

[squealie]

I tried Leon's DI through my own presets as well. They sound good. Took me a while to figure it out. Thanks guys. Im just going to keep doing what I'm doing. My presets sounded great thru a huge PA.

It's funny. In 5+ years with the Axe3... Leon's presets are the ONLY ones that sound exactly like what I hear on the demos.

I reckon its that I use similar guitars/pickups and have a similar style. If i may be so bold.

 

[ocaptainjr2]

It has to be gear mismatch. There are some popular posters here ( I won't name names) whose presets always work for me and others whose presets never do, althought the demo's sound great.

This. I have also found certain user's presets work for me. Others do not, even if the recordings they post sound amazing.

I have multiple JP guitars and the Petrucci Rig preset doesn't translate to my setup, room, and/or playing.

 

[sprint]

It has to be gear mismatch. There are some popular posters here ( I won't name names) whose presets always work for me and others whose presets never do, althought the demo's sound great.

Providing matching DIs with sound demos + presets solves this issue. The preset receiver can re-amp the DI and absolutely confirm that their unit gets that exact sound. If it sounds different thru the same monitoring and global settings are the same, then there is only one possibility: >> guitar/hands.

 

[ToneRanger]

This is what I'm hearing. Imported everything into reaper.

 

[ToneRanger]

Providing matching DIs with sound demos + presets solves this issue. The preset receiver can re-amp the DI and absolutely confirm that their unit gets that exact sound. If it sounds different thru the same monitoring and global settings are the same, then there is only one possibility: >> guitar/hands.

My issue is that my reamp doesn't sound like the Test wav. . See my posted video.

 

[sprint]

My issue is that my reamp doesn't sound like the Test wav. . See my posted video.

Afair, it's a stereo DI (as per best reamp DI capture practice), so to accurately reamp, the DI's L/R needs to be directed back to both Axefx input 1L (Usb Out5) AND Axefx input 1R (Usb Out6) respectively. My guess is that you might only be sending back to one side of Axefx input only which results in considerably less gain when played thru the matching preset compared to the creator's resultant clip.

 

[ToneRanger]

Afair, it's a stereo DI (as per best reamp DI capture practice), so to accurately reamp, the DI's L/R needs to be directed back to both Axefx input 1L (Usb Out5) AND Axefx input 1R (Usb Out6) respectively. My guess is that you might only be sending back to one side of Axefx input only which results in considerably less gain when played thru the matching preset compared to the creator's resultant clip.

Its in stereo. Is there anything specific i need to look for? I reset system parameters. Input 1 set to digital. Usb cable maybe?

 

[sprint]

Its in stereo. Is there anything specific i need to look for? I reset system parameters. Input 1 set to digital. Usb cable maybe?

Been a while since I used that sample - trying it now on my Ax3-mk1, I'm getting the same result as you are with the re-amp less gainy than the provided sample clip. I think what may be happening here is that we are comparing the LT preset running in current firmware to his result posted 4 years ago now and generated in the firmware current as of that time. It's possible the amp's gain structure has changed with subsequent firmwares since then.

Anyway, this is the kind of exercise that helps get to the bottom of issues like this. For interest, I've modded LT's preset to have more gain (changed gain from 3 to 6) and recorded a reamp using this modded preset and LT's DI. It would be interesting to hear if you match my clip output (attached) when reamping again with this modded preset. I'm on the latest firmware (31.01). If you are on the same firmware and your reamp matches my clip then we know that your Axefx3 is operating the same as mine and that there is not likely an Axefx issue at your end. If it doesn't match then we can continue digging but I suspect it will be the same since we're both getting the same less-gained result comparing to LT's output clip at the time he posted it (what's odd is that the HBE V3 model changed that much since then, but maybe it did as there have been quite a few FW updates since then).

Attached is the modded preset and reamp output clip (you'll need to change the preset's cab block to point to the cab slot where you have saved LT's "TV Mix 7" IR.

Edit: Sorry - Initially posted the wrong file - updated: 10:41

 

[ToneRanger]

Been a while since I used that sample - trying it now on my Ax3-mk, I'm getting the same result as you are with the re-amp less gainy than the provided sample clip. I think what may be happening here is that we are comparing the LT preset running in current firmware to his result from 4 years ago generated in the firmware current as of that time. It's possible the amp's gain structure has changed with subsequent firmwares since then.

Anyway, this is the kind of exercise that helps get to the bottom of issues like this. For interest, I've modded LT's preset to have more gain (changed gain from 3 to 6) and recorded a reamp using this modded preset and LT's DI. It would be interesting to hear if you match my clip output when reamping again with this modded preset. I'm on the latest firmware (31.01). If you are on the same firmware and your reamp matches my clip then we know that your Axefx3 is operating the same as mine and that there is not likely an Axefx issue at your end. If it doesn't match then we can continue digging but I suspect it will be the same since we're both getting the same less-gained result comparing to LT's output clip at the time he posted it (what's odd is that the HBE V3 model changed that much since then, but maybe it did as there have been quite a few FW updates since then).

Attached is the modded preset and reamp output clip (you'll need to change the preset's cab block to point to the cab slot where you have saved LT's "TV Mix 7" IR.

I was wondering about that too. If the Amp model was actually tamed down from firmware to firmware. I also boosted the di track, with diminishing returns. Also ran the di into my own presets and it sounded fine. We're kind of on the same page. I messed with gain levels and got closer. Im thinking about showing this to Leon. Not to accuse him of anything but to show how it changed over time

 

[sprint]

I was wondering about that too. If the Amp model was actually tamed down from firmware to firmware. I also boosted the di track, with diminishing returns. Also ran the di into my own presets and it sounded fine. We're kind of on the same page. I messed with gain levels and got closer. Im thinking about showing this to Leon. Not to accuse him of anything but to show how it changed over time

Note I had posted the wrong file above - just updated.

 

[ToneRanger]

Note I had posted the wrong file above - just updated.

No worries. It will be a few hours before i can check it again. Thanks for everything. I also brought this issue up with Frank Stefan Mueller. He says he adds a miniscule amount of room audio so it doesn't sound so direct.

 

[State of Epicicity]

I have experienced the same thing exactly and talked about it with Leon. Here's my thread:

Thread 'Guitar Level Problem?'
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/guitar-level-problem.205854/

I found this discrepancy with Leon videos when I was using the same firmware as him, and with the Cooper Carter Dual Rectifier video too.

I thought there was maybe a problem with the physical input 1 in the front of my Axe-FX III, but I tried all the inputs in the back, and they didn't sound any different. Also, some forum members DM'd me dry recordings of their guitars, and those were in line with my results!

Leon told me he was plugging his guitar directly into input 1 on the front, and he didn't increase the global gain settings, so I never figured that out. I never wrote Cooper.

By way of contrast, Brett Kingman's presets always sound dead on when I try them at home. He's Burgs on this forum, and like Leon, he also creates presets and demos for every new firmware release, from what I can tell. He also posts his presets to the Axe-Change.

The way I would match Leon levels was to juice my input by about 9-12dB, IIRC. It was similar for the Carter Dual Rectifier video.

 

[State of Epicicity]

To further your point, Tone Ranger, I just remembered I happened upon this recently too. A member posted a preset of him playing the Metallica Breadfan cover, and I saw the demo he posted on Instagram. I loaded his preset just maybe a week ago, and my guitar was just anemic. It sounded like the same phenomenon exactly.

I use very hot pickups, and I've tested with a ridiculous variety of picks, with 10-46 D'Addario XLs, and decently hard attack. I don't accept the different guitars, different players argument.

 

[My name is mud]

I ll be really curious to have your feedback after you try my presets .
Because in 5 years and after hundreds of customers I never had that type of feedback .(finger crossed)
Maybe the thing is that I don’t cheat in my demos , no post production etc

Then as some people said, they may be small difference in gain because of the output of the pickups . And also playing the songs well is most of the tone too.
But I agree that it cannot be night and day . I read that many time and I don’t know what they are selling … (without pointing no one hm)

I don’t use headphones at all, and my presets are not done for that. I always hate the tone in the headphones

My dream theater preset is spot on to me .

Also it is nice to privately message the concerned seller, if he is cool he will modify the preset to your needs

 

[My name is mud]

@ToneRanger send me a pm I will send you my DT preset for free . That’s Christmas

 

[JiveTurkey]

In Leon's AM/VP vid; he has the input pad set to 18db. That might account for some differences depending on what your input settings are. At the end of the day; these kinds of "scientific" comparisons are a timesuck and not worth the squeeze ime.

 

[State of Epicicity]

In Leon's AM/VP vid; he has the input pad set to 18db. That might account for some differences depending on what your input settings are. At the end of the day; these kinds of "scientific" comparisons are a timesuck and not worth the squeeze ime.

Oh, crazy! That would totally line up to my experience if that were the case for the Axe-FX III when I compared. I just had to reread my thread about this, because it's always bugged me. But Leon told me he didn't mess with input gain on the Axe-FX III, so I don't know what the deal is to this day.

Rereading my thread about this issue, I realize I had forgotten how many people posted that their DIs look like mine, including Matt Picone, so that made me feel like there was nothing wrong with my unit, or my sanity, though my wife might disagree with the second part