I constantly feel like I'm guessing with my Axe FX II

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Hey guys-

The Axe FX is a deep unit. I just consistently feel like I am completely guessing with what to tweak to get my Axe FX II to sound good. Every patch from other users I load RARELY sounds any good at all. Given how much $$ people pay for an Axe FX, I'm shocked by some of the sounds I load onto the unit- maybe it's my rig but so many presets I try sound absolutely awful. I'm just running a Suhr S-4 into the axe, and it's going to my Yamaha 5" monitors, or my matrix Q12a.

For example; I load in an AC-30 Top Boost amp, with 2x12 Blue speaker, and the Axe just doesn't sound any good. Not a glimmer of a good tone needing to be unlocked; The top end isn't defined, the mids mushy and low end booming. Correcting that doesn't get me much anywhere- I feel like I'm so far in the hole when I start that it's tough to dig my way out of that.

With my traditional rig, simply consisting of a pedalboard into a Fender 65 Deluxe re-issue, I can dial up some basic tones on my bogner blue pedal and get some decent tones. Literally everything at 5 o'clock, I plug in and can get some good stuff. I bought an Axe FX for recording and consistency with live use, but so far it's been such a headache to learn all the lingo/parameters and even get some usable tones out of it- whether for gigging or recording. No presets I load seem to sound anything like my traditional rig. And as I mentioned, building my own isn't getting me there either.

There's so many metal patches out there- I'm just looking for some quality amp tones to base my sound off of. I just can't get anything to sound right, and if I do, I feel like I lucked into it. IDK, I guess I'm just frustrated. It seems so easy to make the unit sound awful, which as I mentioned, I feel like 90% of presets do. Sorry to come off so negative- maybe the modeler route isn't for me. But I sit down to track a song, spend 2 hours trying to get a quality sound out of my axe, and give up because I can't get it to feel/sound truly amp-like. Does anyone have any tips? I've done my best to learn all the basic parameters of the amp block, and I've lurked on here for a while, but I just can't get my amp models to sound good. I'm particularly a lower-gain player; does anyone have any examples of the axe killing on some lowgain? Maybe I should have gone Kemper for some more basic rock n' roll tones.

Basically, I feel like there's too many options for me sometimes, and no presets sound good to my ear. IDK.

Knowing what you want is most important thing. The way you describe your "traditional rig," sounds to me like you want a Clean "amp in the room sound," not a processed "in the mix" sound. It is possible to get this with the Axe FX II, however reading what you've wrote about tweaking, I really don't think this is for you man. LOL at your comment on the Kemper..... I think you'd have just as much if not more trouble, it's almost as deep as the Axe FX, if not deeper in some area's.

BTW, statements like "it just doesn't sound good to my ear" is a complete and utter waste of time. None of us know what sounds good to your ear...... Post some sound samples of what tone you are shooting for and a sample of what you've got so far along with the preset if you really want some help.
 
Going to requote here.

There is endless complaining about what constitutes good tone. This is a horribly SUBJECTIVE topic. Many like something initially, then over time go 'ick'. Common with other modelers and even amps...it sounds great during honeymoon, then after a few weeks of playing..snore.

Find your tone, then dig for it. Do the research, and figure it out. I appreciate the need for advice, but there is way too much of an embarrassment of riches in the Axe, and I see more people with a problem of restriction. If you don't find a tone that's close, don't scattergun and *hope* to find it.

I agree the IR's are tough. I find that I default to a mere few. They vary wildly based off of your volume level and amp settings. Stay constant. It will work out.

With all due respect, though tone is subjective, I backed it up with things to try for those that really don't have a clue. "Do the research" and "dig deep" doesn't help anyone bro if they do not know that they are using too much bass, too much gain or too much mids creating congestion. Tone is not subjective when a user is making blatantly obvious mistakes....which is where I was coming from and hoping to make a difference. "Stay constant" ? If they are "constant" as in constantly wrong or in the wrong area, where have they been helped? I'm not trying to come on your forum as a know-it-all and make any waves. Please don't feel like I'm trying to do that. No one EVER offers a cause and effect in situations like this. People just say "keep searching and messing around with your tone" and it helps NO ONE bro. It's like the guys that play like Gods and you ask them for advice and they say "just keep on practicing". Yeah well what if you're not "practicing" correctly?

Though there are incredible riches in the Axe, it's too easy to miss the obvious for some someone that is hoping they will plug in and sound like God himself. This is a powerful piece of gear that isn't for everyone. It has a learning curve and some people are not ready for it. Do you just tell them "suck it up?" Instead, I'd rather help them get on the right path, man. Forget effects and all the ways we can route the thing...how about we start with getting a good core tone and knowing when too much is too much, how and when to compress, how to know when lows are destroying your tone, how gain is making your tone sound like a run on sentence and how harsh high end can make it sound like a stomp box fed into a mixing console?

These are the things people need to know and we really shouldn't assume they know about them already. Hence my long post attempting to help. Everyone knows tone is subjective. But when people are making blatantly obvious mistakes, there is NO WAY they will achieve what they are looking for. Adding in effects and routing makes them sound even more buried and terrible. I was trying to help them work out a core tone in the most positive and informative way over saying things that have been repeated 1000 times that help no one. Sorry if I ruffled anyone's feathers....I was seriously trying to help to the best of my ability having been in this field both as a guitar player, engineer and teacher of over 30 years.
 
What Danny said. IME the two biggest mistakes are too much gain and too much gain. Beginners use way too much gain to cover up their lack of technical ability and then complain when it sounds lousy. Pros use far less gain than you think. By the time I had been playing professionally for 20 years I had the gain dialed back to 1/10 of what it was when I first started playing. With less gain you get a much more open and dynamic tone. It's only logical.
 
What Danny said. IME the two biggest mistakes are too much gain and too much gain. Beginners use way too much gain to cover up their lack of technical ability and then complain when it sounds lousy. Pros use far less gain than you think. By the time I had been playing professionally for 20 years I had the gain dialed back to 1/10 of what it was when I first started playing. With less gain you get a much more open and dynamic tone. It's only logical.

And too hot of pickups
 
What Danny said. IME the two biggest mistakes are too much gain and too much gain. Beginners use way too much gain to cover up their lack of technical ability and then complain when it sounds lousy. Pros use far less gain than you think. By the time I had been playing professionally for 20 years I had the gain dialed back to 1/10 of what it was when I first started playing. With less gain you get a much more open and dynamic tone. It's only logical.

I continue to be amazed when I listen to old AC/DC how the solos especially have almost a clean sound, that is obviously cranked. Same with the solos in old Kansas or Styx - just classic rock in general. Sounds like low-output / vintage pickups into comparatively clean amps being driven somewhat.

As I've aged, I've tended towards lower output pickups. I have enough gain on tap with my gear - I don't need high output pickups squeezing the original tone through a vice before it hits the input of the gear.
 
And too hot of pickups

So true! The biggest issue I have found with hot pups is coming up with a clean tone that works. It CAN be achieved, but it it definitely takes more work with high output pups than it does with lower output pups. I like middle of the road myself. I've been using active and passive these days. Active for clean (via push/pull knob) and passive for the dirty stuff. With the gain we get out of the Axe, there's really no need for high output pups. Between the input gain control and the amp gain/pedal gain...whew, we're covered in the gain area all across the board. LOL! :)

I continue to be amazed when I listen to old AC/DC how the solos especially have almost a clean sound, that is obviously cranked. Same with the solos in old Kansas or Styx - just classic rock in general. Sounds like low-output / vintage pickups into comparatively clean amps being driven somewhat.

As I've aged, I've tended towards lower output pickups. I have enough gain on tap with my gear - I don't need high output pickups squeezing the original tone through a vice before it hits the input of the gear.

Yeah it is quite amazing. The downside is how loud you have to be to actually get that sound....which is why I'm glad we have the extra beef in the Axe. It's almost impossible to use that old power tube sustain sound in a club. You'll get the clube manager throwing wet napkins at you to turn down. LOL! You know what else amazes me rodz? How hard it is to play with that tone. Meaning, legato type stuff is so much harder. You really have to have some finger strength or you die right out. George Lynch got a pretty convincing Angus type tone on that second Lynch Mob album. I forget the name of the song, but he said he couldn't believe how hard it was to get that sound and then to actually play leads using it. His was a bit more modern sounding, but still had that output tube saturation sound.

I used to really be into that myself, but have since changed to using more pre-amp gain. Sort of a hybrid between a more processed tone and the vintage thing. I like that I can play lower and still have gain and sustain. Being in the recording field, my ears are super important so the lower I can play while still getting a good tone, the better....even if there is a bit of a sacrifice going on. On the side when I'm not doing my original thing, I play in a Van Halen tribute band. The Axe has me really close to Ed's sound but man...it took some getting used to because of the gain not being there. That's how Ed gets that clean, distinct pick attack. My old sound, though close, had more gain in it making it easier for me to play certain things. So it's definitely been a bit more challenging but in a good way. LOL! :)
 
Danny did you use your axe fx when you played J.B. McGinnes on dec 14

Actually I didn't ron. I'm waiting on my pedal board to come through. I'm currently using a Bradshaw Switching System with my Axe at home to feel it out and program it etc. But it's nothing compared to what the MFC will do for me. I bought all the expression pedals already. I just need the MFC and hopefully I'll be good to go.

That Dec 14th gig was one of the reasons I bought the Axe Fx. I've been using several Digitech 2101's since the early 90's and they've been breaking down on me. Dec 14th I had like 5 2101 reboots which drove me crazy. (they just get too hot and need to be re-soldered with more copper, recapped etc and that unit wasn't re-soldered so it was acting up) I just found a guy that fixes them a few months ago but this unit was newer and I thought I'd be ok. Boy was I mistaken. LOL!

I use the Axe live at practice though as well as for recording. I could take it out with the Bradshaw, but the pedal board is enormous and the rack for it it another double space....so I just use it for home.
 
I'm currently using a Bradshaw Switching System with my Axe at home to feel it out and program it etc.

I use the Axe live at practice though as well as for recording. I could take it out with the Bradshaw, but the pedal board is enormous and the rack for it it another double space....so I just use it for home.

1. Aw man JUST DO IT!
2. Seriously though, I checked out a few of your videos and you shred!
3. I remember your initial post after getting the Axe. It is somewhat overwhelming. Are you getting settled in and understanding "how it thinks" better?
4. Rock On!
 
Danny when you play at J.B. McGinnes again with you axe fx 2 post it here i would like to here your tones. I played their with my axe fx 2 and it sounded great it was on ver 3 not 12.3
 
My approach is: Replace one stage after the other of the signal path. Doing this will learn you what (sound) stage will do for itself and will learn where (!!!) you have to tweak or change within the chain: Classic Rig: [Guitar] -> [Preamp] -> [Poweramp] -> [Guitar Cab] -> [Room influences] -> [Ear] Axe-Fx FRFR-Rig: [Guitar] -> [PreampSim] -> [PowerampSim] -> [Cab IR] -> [FRFR-Monitor] -> [Room influences] -> [Ear] Let`s have a deeper look into the part: [Cab IR] -> [FRFR-Monitor] -> [Room influences]: [Cab IR] =GuitarCab + Microphon(s) + Microphon(s) Position(s) + Preamp(s) [FRFR-Monitor] = Full Range Flat Response is a theory of an ideal. In praxis this part will get expensive! I never heard two different "so called FRFR Speakers" that sounds the same! this we have to keep in mind! [Room influences] = This is the reason your real Amp+Guitar cabinet will always sound different at different rooms or positions of the Amp OR your ears in a room! We did not hear speakers, guitar cabs or (FRFR)-Monitors for itself! We always hear them in a room! Most (all?) rooms deform the ideal (FRFR) on the way to your ear (early reflections, different absorptions of the walls, ground, top, etc...) So this is the reason, because many of us (me too) can`t stress enough how important the IR is! IF you`ll go the FRFR route. But for "Modeler Beginners", Guitarists who want to change from real amp to modeler+FRFR i recommend: Replace one stage after the other! And YOUR Guitar Cab (YOU know and hopefully love) should be the LAST step to exchange for FRFR! Some people won`t do that either - and they have good arguements to keep up with their classic Guitar Cabinets! So, the first thing i would do is: STEP ONE: Replace the Preamp: Axe-Fx Matrix: Shunt line from input to output, 1 Amp block. Take the Deluxe Amp Block, bypass the PowerAmp Sim (SAG = 0 or PowerAmp off in global settings) and go straight into the poweramp and Cabinet of your real Deluxe. If you can`t do that, because of no FX return at the amp: Get your hands down on a decent Solid state Power Amp and jump to STEP TWO: Replace the Preamp AND Poweramp: Activate the PowerampSim in the Amp-Block again = [PreampSim] -> [PowerAmpSim]+[SS Poweramp] -> Speaker Cabinet of the real deluxe ... ...and so on ... if THIS will work and give you satisfying results, THAN you should or could try FRFR! Because THAN you will understand where differences in sound (and feel?!) will come from! This will you learn, if for example too boomy results are located in the Amp Block or the IR block (or your FRFR Monitor, or .... ) That said: LAST STEP: Replace the guitar Cab with FRFR+IR (Cab Block) Just my two cents ... For the record: At the moment i experiment with Tonematchings of real Guitar-Cabinet against FRFR-Monitor, trying to match also from a mic-position, where the guitarists ear would be in the room, deskew the room influences with the IK Multimedia ARC System (flatten the FRFR Monitor for a indirect off-axis ear position to the FRFR Monitor (like you normaly hear your guitar speaker cabinet) ... and such things - Man, very impressing results when i compare then the FRFR-Monitor (Q12a) against the real Guitar-Cabinet. Sounds (and feels!!!!) more similar than i`ve ever thought it could be! Very interesting ...

Ya but what about the levels of neuronium?
 
To the OP, keep it simple find a preset that is close to a tone that you like then tweak it to taste. What works for me is to bump 2K and 4K and cut 125 and 250 (all around 2db) in the global eq. then I bump up the depth and dynamic depth in patches. I only stumbled on this from tweaking and it just happens to work for me. All of the sounds are in there, you just need to dig them out!
 
1. Aw man JUST DO IT!
2. Seriously though, I checked out a few of your videos and you shred!
3. I remember your initial post after getting the Axe. It is somewhat overwhelming. Are you getting settled in and understanding "how it thinks" better?
4. Rock On!

1. Hahaha, I will I promise ya. That Bradshaw is like 3 times the size of the MFC and I'd need a bigger rack than the 8 space I'm using currently due the the Bradshaw rack part being another double. With the MFC, I won't need anything additional in my rack. :)

2. Aww you're too kind bro, thanks so much. I appreciate that! :)

3. I was really never overwhelmed by it to be honest. The 2101 is similar in ways and at times is even more of a bear than the Axe believe it or not because it wasn't constructed internally the right way like the Axe has. My greatest issue with the Axe is it has so many different tweaks while creating sounds that I can't make up my mind. I was really settled in with it rather early. I read the manual before I got it and then when I got it, everything fell into place. A few of Scott Peterson's vids (especially the one on routing effects so that you don't boost levels) and I was in pretty good shape.

4. Thanks rodz, rock on! :)

Danny when you play at J.B. McGinnes again with you axe fx 2 post it here i would like to here your tones. I played their with my axe fx 2 and it sounded great it was on ver 3 not 12.3

ron: unfortunately that will rely on when Fractal can get me my MFC. I'm on the wait list, have my money ready to go and hope I get notified within the next week or so. In the meantime, I can probably play a few of my sounds to some backing tracks that I have so you can hear them. All my tones are works in progress right now though until I get the MFC and can do scene changes as a lot of my sounds depend on gapless program changes etc. I'm also still experimenting with the tones and nothing is etched in stone yet until I get everything working in my actual rig and can tweak further. But I seem to be on a really good course so far and am totally happy with everything I'm getting out of my Axe so far.
 
Hi guys,

Forgive me for chiming in here, but after reading this entire thread I would like to give you some food for thought if you care to read. :) Though everything said here by everyone has merit, the one thing I think that has NOT been said is....you have to know what constitutes a good guitar tone before you can CREATE a good guitar tone.

You can have the most powerful gizmo in the world that can give you everything....and it won't help you one bit if you don't have a clue as to what good tone is. This is where people constantly fail not only with the Axe, but with other amps, pre-amps, VST's and anything else involving tone creation.

The one thing that you will always battle when using presets is...there are so many variables, most of them will not work for you. The guitar used, the monitors the creator used and most importantly, their "tone fingerprint". I'm sure you guys have heard the story of Ted Nugent and Eddie Van Halen? Ted was dying to play through Ed's amp. So when they met and played with each other, Ed plugged into Ted's rig, Ted into Ed's rig. Can you guess what happened? Ted STILL sounded like Ted in Ed's rig and Eddie sounded like Eddie in Ted's rig. So individual "tone fingerprints" are super important.

The other thing with presets.....most of them may not work in a recording situation or in a band situation. It's not that they aren't good tones. The problem is they were eq'd to be "all alone". When I teach my recording students about guitar tones, one of the things we cover is how to literally look at tones. Your "all alone" sound can be whatever you want as long as it's you playing all by yourself. 9 times out of 10, this tone will NOT work in a mix of instruments nor will it work with a band unless a soundman is tweaking it for you. See this is the thing that can be missed as a guitarist and it happens all too often.

Because a person may not know what constitutes a good guitar tone, they go for the thickest, nastiest tone they can come up with. You just about always fail with that mentality. Sad but true. Guitarists like low end push, which is the worst thing you can add to a guitar tone. The first thing a soundman is going to do, is high pass you to remove that blanket of ooooooooosssssssh that is going on behind your sound that you aren't aware of that is also stepping into bass guitar territory. We have to be VERY careful of low end at all times ESPECIALLY with high gain tones.

As soon as you start chugging chords and hear a whoomfing sound or feel the bass push, you're using too much low end....trust me on this. Bass in a guitar tone should be heard more than felt if you like a bassier tone. Stay away from anything under 80 Hz if you can help it and try high-passing in that area or even up to 100 Hz. Me personally, I see no need to have any low end under 100 Hz but I HAVE been successful with slight harmonics in the 80 Hz range. But seriously, high pass that low end away. Start at like 80 Hz and keep high passing going up until you hear the blanket of low end mud leave your tone. Then gradually go back down in frequency to add a little back in just until you have enough so the tone isn't paper thin. Check your chugs and make sure you're not whoomfing and you should notice a huge difference.

With mids, too much mids (when you are going for a thick sound) can get too congested and they can totally bury your tone. Good places (just as starting points for you) to control low mids and mids for guitar are 320 Hz, 640 Hz and 860 Hz. These will give you thickness when used correctly or they can totally mud you up if you use them excessively. Playing with each one will show you how they can affect your tone. They can also be removed a bit to help a tone that is too congested to cut through the mix. So try messing with them to see how the interact with your core sound. The low end and mid range tips I've given here alone can help me get a good tone out of just about anything really.

Highs will always be subjective because our hearing differs from person to person. I personally control highs in my tones from 3k to 6k. At times I've added a little 10k with a tight Q for some air or "sizzle" so to speak. It depends what you're going for. Low passing is also really great for controlling the amount of sizzle you get in your tone. Try low passing starting at 12k and keep going until your tone warms up and is no longer abrasive and harsh/trebly sounding. This is a really good way to fix things fast if you're in a hurry and it can be a permanent fix as well.

Gain is another thing that can kill you. If you are a gain whore, your best friend will be a compressor because it will still allow you to have gain/sustain but it will stop the gain from soundinglikearunonesentencelikethisonehere. LOL! Ever hear a dude with too much gain chug chords? Instead of that distinct "chunk chunk chunk" sound...he gets "yug yug yug" (I'm talking to you in guitar syllable language now...so go back and say those words...lol...notice how "chunk" is brighter and more percussive than "yug"? Get it now?) that is lacking a percussion pick attack. It just sounds like a bunch of gain that doesn't breathe. You know the sound I mean.

So controlling gain is a MUST because it can be the death of you. But with a compressor, it will tighten up the gain and allow the sustain to be there which is a good thing. You don't want the compressor to clamp down too hard or it will give you a pumping sound...but you want it to at least chop off a few dB's of gain if you are a gain whore. The difference without the compressor would be, the gain would just be gain without texture...without the ability to breathe. Those that don't use loads of gain won't have to ever worry about this...but we metal guys have to be concerned because it CAN and WILL make a difference for the better when you get things just right.

As one of the posters in this thread mentioned, the Axe can be as basic or as advanced as you want it to be. Just keep in mind, none of that matters if you don't know what to listen for or don't know how to achieve a good tone. Don't feel embarrassed by that if you happen to fall into that category. My entire life as an engineer and guitar player....has been about learning what to listen for and how to listen for it. Some people are gifted and just know good tones and can create them. Others know good tone when they hear it but don't know how to achieve it. The good news for those people is...we have some pretty awesome multi-tracks available on the net that will give you a VERY good representation as to what your hero's sound like in a studio situation without being mastered.

A lot can be learned from those types of muti-tracks, so search for them. You'll be surprised at how little gain your favorite guitarist may use and how little bass is in their tone....or how little low end is actually in a bass guitar for you recording guys. We simply need to be taught what to listen for and what makes it even more challenging is, once you have the tone you want for recording, you have to try and nail it through your amp/cab! Hahaha! But it should be a good challenge, not something that annoys you. If you do find some of this stuff nerve-wracking to the point of frustration, take a step back and just work on your axe with the stock stuff using the amps, eq stomps and compression.

As for the IR's...I've worked with so many of them, it's crazy. I'm a beta tester for quite a few companies so I have a pretty vast IR library. Though there are some great ones, if you know how to deal with tone, you should be able to come up with something acceptable using any IR you encounter. The key there...you have to know how to get good tones to begin with. I haven't even loaded up any of my special IR's into my Axe yet because I'm completely happy with the ones that came with it as well as the IR's I have created myself. I'm totally content other than I really wish the Axe had a 12AX7 pre tube. :)

Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded but my hope is that those of you that may be having problems may take a few steps back, forget all the high tech stuff the Axe can do, and just work on tone identification as well as how to achieve good tone. When you know what to listen for and how to listen for it, everything you are struggling with now goes away. One of the coolest things we have in the Axe is that tone matching feature. It can really teach you what is and what is not in a tone as far as eq goes. For some of the tones I've matched, it was a rude awakening for me as well. Some tones are terrible by themselves, but put them in a tune with other instruments, and magic happens. Unfortunately that's how it goes in this field...and it's also why we have automation. LOL! :) Merry Christmas everyone...and best of luck.

Ehhhh, can this be stickied?

He is SO on the money, and has hit points that you can hear on the RHCPs music (Compression), use of gain (Slipknots 3rd album, System Of A Down's Mesmerise and Hypnotise), WHHOMPH (...And Justice For All, where the guitar washed out the bass), and many many other things.

This should be required reading for novices, and I'm ashamed to admit, something that I assumed most guitar players would have known. Shows you how narrow minded my field of expertise is.....
 
Ehhhh, can this be stickied?

He is SO on the money, and has hit points that you can hear on the RHCPs music (Compression), use of gain (Slipknots 3rd album, System Of A Down's Mesmerise and Hypnotise), WHHOMPH (...And Justice For All, where the guitar washed out the bass), and many many other things.

This should be required reading for novices, and I'm ashamed to admit, something that I assumed most guitar players would have known. Shows you how narrow minded my field of expertise is.....

Thanks BigD. :) You know, it's really the same principal with anything. For example, I'm on another forum talking about recording and someone mentioned a site where you can grab all these killer multi-track recordings so you can practice mixing them. I made a mention that I feel that stuff helps no one other than showing them "look kid, here's how you're supposed to record....when you can afford good gear and know what you're doing". What good is learning to mix with tracks that are great coming out of the box? The amateur isn't achieving those types of results, so in turn, they need to be taught what to listen for using their gear and with their resources, right? I mean yes, we are supposed to record the best tracks we can record at all times. But bedroom engineers don't always have the power to do this. Tracking the right sounds helps you mix...we can't achieve great mixes without the tracking.

The same with the Axe. Mixing and copping things isn't the same as creating/achieving. We have to know what makes up the elements of good tone before we can pursue good tone in my opinion. Heck, the stuff I talked about in that big post was all stuff I learned from others that sat me down and said "here's how to identify the low end whoosh in a tone that makes it bad......here's what too much low mid sounds like and how you can curb it, here's the difference between good gain and harsh highs trying to simulate gain....here's when effects can wash you out and here's how compression can literally enhance and tighten up your tone". You know the drill. Some guys grasp this and get the tones of the gods, others will struggle a bit more. To me it all walks hand in hand. :)
 
I agree with stickying Danny's awesome post! The reason why his info is so useful is because you are hearing from an incredible guitar player who is also apparently does a lot of recording. So many guitar players never get into the recording and mixing of their tracks that they do not understand the basics of what sounds good and why. I think working with a modeler in many ways requires you to understand shaping the guitar sound in the same way that recording and mixing does. Learn from the pros who are generous enough to give you their insights learned through hard work over many years. If you want to be able to craft tones that work alone or with a band, in a small room or a large room, in a packed room or an empty room, in a hard room or a soft room, when you are playing through a closed cab or through an open back cab, when your amp is on the floor or when your amp is raised, etc... then listen closely to Danny. The same exact tone rarely works in all of those situations!
 
Hi guys,

Forgive me for chiming in here, but after reading this entire thread I would like to give you some food for thought if you care to read. :) Though everything said here by everyone has merit, the one thing I think that has NOT been said is....you have to know what constitutes a good guitar tone before you can CREATE a good guitar tone.

You can have the most powerful gizmo in the world that can give you everything....and it won't help you one bit if you don't have a clue as to what good tone is. This is where people constantly fail not only with the Axe, but with other amps, pre-amps, VST's and anything else involving tone creation.

The one thing that you will always battle when using presets is...there are so many variables, most of them will not work for you. The guitar used, the monitors the creator used and most importantly, their "tone fingerprint". I'm sure you guys have heard the story of Ted Nugent and Eddie Van Halen? Ted was dying to play through Ed's amp. So when they met and played with each other, Ed plugged into Ted's rig, Ted into Ed's rig. Can you guess what happened? Ted STILL sounded like Ted in Ed's rig and Eddie sounded like Eddie in Ted's rig. So individual "tone fingerprints" are super important.

The other thing with presets.....most of them may not work in a recording situation or in a band situation. It's not that they aren't good tones. The problem is they were eq'd to be "all alone". When I teach my recording students about guitar tones, one of the things we cover is how to literally look at tones. Your "all alone" sound can be whatever you want as long as it's you playing all by yourself. 9 times out of 10, this tone will NOT work in a mix of instruments nor will it work with a band unless a soundman is tweaking it for you. See this is the thing that can be missed as a guitarist and it happens all too often.

Because a person may not know what constitutes a good guitar tone, they go for the thickest, nastiest tone they can come up with. You just about always fail with that mentality. Sad but true. Guitarists like low end push, which is the worst thing you can add to a guitar tone. The first thing a soundman is going to do, is high pass you to remove that blanket of ooooooooosssssssh that is going on behind your sound that you aren't aware of that is also stepping into bass guitar territory. We have to be VERY careful of low end at all times ESPECIALLY with high gain tones.

As soon as you start chugging chords and hear a whoomfing sound or feel the bass push, you're using too much low end....trust me on this. Bass in a guitar tone should be heard more than felt if you like a bassier tone. Stay away from anything under 80 Hz if you can help it and try high-passing in that area or even up to 100 Hz. Me personally, I see no need to have any low end under 100 Hz but I HAVE been successful with slight harmonics in the 80 Hz range. But seriously, high pass that low end away. Start at like 80 Hz and keep high passing going up until you hear the blanket of low end mud leave your tone. Then gradually go back down in frequency to add a little back in just until you have enough so the tone isn't paper thin. Check your chugs and make sure you're not whoomfing and you should notice a huge difference.

With mids, too much mids (when you are going for a thick sound) can get too congested and they can totally bury your tone. Good places (just as starting points for you) to control low mids and mids for guitar are 320 Hz, 640 Hz and 860 Hz. These will give you thickness when used correctly or they can totally mud you up if you use them excessively. Playing with each one will show you how they can affect your tone. They can also be removed a bit to help a tone that is too congested to cut through the mix. So try messing with them to see how the interact with your core sound. The low end and mid range tips I've given here alone can help me get a good tone out of just about anything really.

Highs will always be subjective because our hearing differs from person to person. I personally control highs in my tones from 3k to 6k. At times I've added a little 10k with a tight Q for some air or "sizzle" so to speak. It depends what you're going for. Low passing is also really great for controlling the amount of sizzle you get in your tone. Try low passing starting at 12k and keep going until your tone warms up and is no longer abrasive and harsh/trebly sounding. This is a really good way to fix things fast if you're in a hurry and it can be a permanent fix as well.

Gain is another thing that can kill you. If you are a gain whore, your best friend will be a compressor because it will still allow you to have gain/sustain but it will stop the gain from soundinglikearunonesentencelikethisonehere. LOL! Ever hear a dude with too much gain chug chords? Instead of that distinct "chunk chunk chunk" sound...he gets "yug yug yug" (I'm talking to you in guitar syllable language now...so go back and say those words...lol...notice how "chunk" is brighter and more percussive than "yug"? Get it now?) that is lacking a percussion pick attack. It just sounds like a bunch of gain that doesn't breathe. You know the sound I mean.

So controlling gain is a MUST because it can be the death of you. But with a compressor, it will tighten up the gain and allow the sustain to be there which is a good thing. You don't want the compressor to clamp down too hard or it will give you a pumping sound...but you want it to at least chop off a few dB's of gain if you are a gain whore. The difference without the compressor would be, the gain would just be gain without texture...without the ability to breathe. Those that don't use loads of gain won't have to ever worry about this...but we metal guys have to be concerned because it CAN and WILL make a difference for the better when you get things just right.

As one of the posters in this thread mentioned, the Axe can be as basic or as advanced as you want it to be. Just keep in mind, none of that matters if you don't know what to listen for or don't know how to achieve a good tone. Don't feel embarrassed by that if you happen to fall into that category. My entire life as an engineer and guitar player....has been about learning what to listen for and how to listen for it. Some people are gifted and just know good tones and can create them. Others know good tone when they hear it but don't know how to achieve it. The good news for those people is...we have some pretty awesome multi-tracks available on the net that will give you a VERY good representation as to what your hero's sound like in a studio situation without being mastered.

A lot can be learned from those types of muti-tracks, so search for them. You'll be surprised at how little gain your favorite guitarist may use and how little bass is in their tone....or how little low end is actually in a bass guitar for you recording guys. We simply need to be taught what to listen for and what makes it even more challenging is, once you have the tone you want for recording, you have to try and nail it through your amp/cab! Hahaha! But it should be a good challenge, not something that annoys you. If you do find some of this stuff nerve-wracking to the point of frustration, take a step back and just work on your axe with the stock stuff using the amps, eq stomps and compression.

As for the IR's...I've worked with so many of them, it's crazy. I'm a beta tester for quite a few companies so I have a pretty vast IR library. Though there are some great ones, if you know how to deal with tone, you should be able to come up with something acceptable using any IR you encounter. The key there...you have to know how to get good tones to begin with. I haven't even loaded up any of my special IR's into my Axe yet because I'm completely happy with the ones that came with it as well as the IR's I have created myself. I'm totally content other than I really wish the Axe had a 12AX7 pre tube. :)

Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded but my hope is that those of you that may be having problems may take a few steps back, forget all the high tech stuff the Axe can do, and just work on tone identification as well as how to achieve good tone. When you know what to listen for and how to listen for it, everything you are struggling with now goes away. One of the coolest things we have in the Axe is that tone matching feature. It can really teach you what is and what is not in a tone as far as eq goes. For some of the tones I've matched, it was a rude awakening for me as well. Some tones are terrible by themselves, but put them in a tune with other instruments, and magic happens. Unfortunately that's how it goes in this field...and it's also why we have automation. LOL! :) Merry Christmas everyone...and best of luck.

Yek - Wiki worthy? ;)
 
I agree with stickying Danny's awesome post! The reason why his info is so useful is because you are hearing from an incredible guitar player who is also apparently does a lot of recording. So many guitar players never get into the recording and mixing of their tracks that they do not understand the basics of what sounds good and why. I think working with a modeler in many ways requires you to understand shaping the guitar sound in the same way that recording and mixing does. Learn from the pros who are generous enough to give you their insights learned through hard work over many years. If you want to be able to craft tones that work alone or with a band, in a small room or a large room, in a packed room or an empty room, in a hard room or a soft room, when you are playing through a closed cab or through an open back cab, when your amp is on the floor or when your amp is raised, etc... then listen closely to Danny. The same exact tone rarely works in all of those situations!

You're too kind hoth, thanks a lot. :) I didn't realize you guys would be into stuff like this. I figured I'd wind up being banned for being a wordy baystid or something. LOL! I have lots of things I could probably share about this topic. The main thing we always have to remember though....which was said at the beginning by one of the posters...."tone is subjective". The thing we have to decipher is whether or not a tone is acceptable or not. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean the tone is bad. We have to search for blatantly wrong issues that hinder a tone. I can't stand some of the early Steve Howe tones from the YES albums....that tone makes the hair on my arms stand up and my arms are nearly bald. LOL! BUT...it works with that material even though I'd probably low pass it a bit more so it's not so abrasive. The other side of the coin...the man can play, so it makes it a bit more acceptable and well, they have sold about 80 million more albums than me. LMAO!

Yeah what you say about rooms etc is huge, especially with the Axe. For example, a user in today's times would be better off using our cab room sim over reverb. Why? Because reverb "today" can wash out your tone...especially with long tails. Our Axe cab room sim literally can sound like a mic'd cab in a room. I'm talking the little bit of air that would be in between the cab and the mic. This is groundbreaking and to me obliterates reverb for a rhythm tone in the 2000's. Most tones we hear today in rock, metal or even modern country....you cannot hear the room sound in the guitars to the point of being able to pinpoint whether or not they direct mic'd, really mic'd a rig, used an impulse, used a reverb or even our good ole AxeFx cab room. Most all sounds are pretty up front and direct including drums other than lightly gated reverbs on snares and processing on toms. Little things like this bring your tones/instruments right back into the mix whether it be live or studio just because we either got rid of a delay or used a smaller verb without a tail.

Man oh man I could elaborate on so many things here.....but I want to make friends...lol...and with long novel posts, I'd probably make enemies. Hahaha! Anyway, you sort of get the drift on what I'm saying I'm sure. I by no means have a perfect tone or anything close to it...but I can make even my worst tones work even if I'm the only one that likes them. Acceptable is where we need to be first...then we can go for perfection. Even if perfection remains in our ears only. :)
 
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