Highly compressed sound on high gain amps

The Mark series are my favorite high gain amps and also just about the trickiest thing ever to dial in.

Leon Todd's got a couple great videos that'll walk you through dialing them in from scratch - highly suggested. I had no idea how to properly adjust the knobs on these things before watching the videos.

 
Why does everybody dial in so much gain nowadays? All the greatest guitar tones actually have a LOT less gain than you think.
Probably to emulate that multi tracked sound with just one guitar. Or maybe to compensate for playing at lower volumes. I find I use less gain when the volume is higher both in real amps and the axe fx.
 
Why does everybody dial in so much gain nowadays? All the greatest guitar tones actually have a LOT less gain than you think.
My guess is because fewer people play in front of cranked cabs. Those great tones of yesteryear relied on a degree of acoustic reinforcement. The same amount of gain can feel anemic at lower volume through FRFR. Higher gain also hides deficiencies in technique. But we all know that isn't the reason. 😉
 
Ok so ... after reading all your answers a few more days tweaking the Axe III, I think what I feel is not a compressed sound, what happens is that I am not used to hearing the sound that comes from a miked cab, I suppose.

You were right about the levels they weren't correct. But after correcting all this I can not get a better sound than what I get from Guitar Rig 5.
I'm very sad but I guess I'll have to send it back.

Here are two audios trying to match Metallica's Sad But True, I have used fractal as an audio interface, both tracks are coming from the loop block, one through the preset (that I'm sharing) and the other through GR5.
I did not add any effect or EQ after recording.
Sorry for my playing, I wasn't in a good mood.
you guys are more experienced than me, what can you add to the preset to be as tide as in GR?
Be careful, the GR one is much louder.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vlj8jgdtoqx5zeh/AABYR68fZKNk5hHTXJb803AZa?dl=0
 

Attachments

  • Sad But true.syx
    48.2 KB · Views: 12
Ok so ... after reading all your answers a few more days tweaking the Axe III, I think what I feel is not a compressed sound, what happens is that I am not used to hearing the sound that comes from a miked cab, I suppose.

You were right about the levels they weren't correct. But after correcting all this I can not get a better sound than what I get from Guitar Rig 5.
I'm very sad but I guess I'll have to send it back.

Here are two audios trying to match Metallica's Sad But True, I have used fractal as an audio interface, both tracks are coming from the loop block, one through the preset (that I'm sharing) and the other through GR5.
I did not add any effect or EQ after recording.
Sorry for my playing, I wasn't in a good mood.
you guys are more experienced than me, what can you add to the preset to be as tide as in GR?
Be careful, the GR one is much louder.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vlj8jgdtoqx5zeh/AABYR68fZKNk5hHTXJb803AZa?dl=0
You should at least add the same effects that are on GR if you want similar sounds. For example, GR sample is drenched in reverb while axe sample is pretty dry. GR is quite mid heavy while axe is mid-scooped, boost the mids either via the amp controls or with a post EQ, see what works best. In alternative try a different IR or a tonematch.
And last but not least, you should really match volumes when doing such A/B comparisons, otherwise you'll always prefer the loudest one
 
You should at least add the same effects that are on GR if you want similar sounds. For example, GR sample is drenched in reverb while axe sample is pretty dry. GR is quite mid heavy while axe is mid-scooped, boost the mids either via the amp controls or with a post EQ, see what works best. In alternative try a different IR or a tonematch.
And last but not least, you should really match levels when doing such A/B comparisons, otherwise you'll always prefer the loudest one

sorry for the unmatched levels, actually I didn't boost the other signal, they came out like this,
I wasn't trying to match these two tracks in between, I was trying to match the actual song, that's why they have a different settings, and adding reverb in the fractal , I feel it less fuller, that's why I recorded without reverb,

Now, I added more reverb and more mids, and amplified +8db the fractal track with "audacity", but I think the GR one steel is louder.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vlj8jgdtoqx5zeh/AABYR68fZKNk5hHTXJb803AZa?dl=0
 

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  • Sad But true v2.syx
    48.2 KB · Views: 9
Why does everybody dial in so much gain nowadays? All the greatest guitar tones actually have a LOT less gain than you think.
I think @yek in this post was talking about your settings, the ones I have used the first time.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...-usa-iic-and-iic-mesa-boogie-mark-iic.115442/

"Cliff’s guidelines to dial in the IIC+:
These were my settings for a killer high-gain tone: Model: USA IIC+ / Input Drive: 8.1 / Overdrive: 9-10 / Bass: 1.0 / Midrange: 1.8 / Treble: 8.9 / Presence: 4.5 / MV: 4.0 / Level: -20 dB / Bright Switch ON / 80 Hz: 4.8 / 240 Hz: 2.6 / 750 Hz: -4.5 / 2200: -0.2 / 6600: 0."
 
Why does everybody dial in so much gain nowadays? All the greatest guitar tones actually have a LOT less gain than you think.
Nowadays ? Depends in which music scene you are . The “max gain thing” is now 40 years old in the thrash metal scene , death metal and whatever metal.... That’s metal man ! mETaal !!! Extreme settings ! The nowadays scene plays in Z tuning with gain at 4 cause they are tuned like a bass 😅. I dont like mid gain crunch . Goes well for some type of music but not mine 😅😁
 
Ok so ... after reading all your answers a few more days tweaking the Axe III, I think what I feel is not a compressed sound, what happens is that I am not used to hearing the sound that comes from a miked cab, I suppose.

You were right about the levels they weren't correct. But after correcting all this I can not get a better sound than what I get from Guitar Rig 5.
I'm very sad but I guess I'll have to send it back.

Here are two audios trying to match Metallica's Sad But True, I have used fractal as an audio interface, both tracks are coming from the loop block, one through the preset (that I'm sharing) and the other through GR5.
I did not add any effect or EQ after recording.
Sorry for my playing, I wasn't in a good mood.
you guys are more experienced than me, what can you add to the preset to be as tide as in GR?
Be careful, the GR one is much louder.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vlj8jgdtoqx5zeh/AABYR68fZKNk5hHTXJb803AZa?dl=0
I think that the day you have understood that modelers are recording and live tools , and that a miced amp don’t sound like a stack in front of you with your ears , you feel better with them . I had and sometime still have this “fuck this is boxy sounding “ and I try to find a solution everytime to make them sound like a amp in a room , but that’s not easy . Because you need to stop cutting everything if you want this amp in the room sound and then it will sound like shit in a mix ... so you need to find a setting that’s sound well for both .... I understand why some people use a real cab when they don’t own a tube head anymore , with this you can enjoy playing guitar like “before “. But playing guitar through studio monitors is not as great of a real amp in a room ... that’s not really the goal of These products in my opinions . I owned most of the modelers , and the axe 3 is the best . The less synthetic one . But yes it sound boxy in high gain when you play alone with it .
i am actually still doing test with the pan , with 2 irs . I have done hard pan left right and got strange surprises between amps and irs . The space of the sound with headphones is not the same when I change presets , and I don’t understand why .
did you already feel it ?
i mean : do a preset with a recto , 2 random cabs hard pan left right , and then another preset with another amp and others irs panned left right and the sound in the headphone seems to come from another way , sometimes more left , sometimes more right ... strange .
sorry for my poor English
 
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This music isn't my jam, but that said, the Fractal version is still SO much quieter, you'll never be able to do a reasonable comparison. "It just came out like that" just means your output level on the Fractal is way low, or the GR version is way high. Those are basic things you have control over.

And that said, I prefer the Fractal version anyway, when I really roughly match the levels. It's punchier, less buzzy, though both are buzzier than the original.

And that said, if you're happier with Guitar Rig, don't worry about it, save some money and use that! If it sounds good to you, you're there.
 
sorry for the unmatched levels, actually I didn't boost the other signal, they came out like this,
I wasn't trying to match these two tracks in between, I was trying to match the actual song, that's why they have a different settings, and adding reverb in the fractal , I feel it less fuller, that's why I recorded without reverb,

Now, I added more reverb and more mids, and amplified +8db the fractal track with "audacity", but I think the GR one steel is louder.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vlj8jgdtoqx5zeh/AABYR68fZKNk5hHTXJb803AZa?dl=0
Does it sound better now?
https://gofile.io/d/ZDgSPS
 
Just to add more noise to the thread :), since I saw the Sad but true riff being tossed around, here's a patch that kinda puts you in the ballpark.

You may want to remove the modifier attached to the delay block - I use a pedal to bring in the delays and increase the level for leads.
The pitch block is there to down-tune my standard tuned guitar for the Sad But True riff.

Here's how it sounds, in the mix, then guitars only.
 

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  • Kindallica.syx
    48.2 KB · Views: 33
I think that the day you have understood that modelers are recording and live tools , and that a miced amp don’t sound like a stack in front of you with your ears , you feel better with them . I had and sometime still have this “fuck this is boxy sounding “ and I try to find a solution everytime to make them sound like a amp in a room , but that’s not easy . Because you need to stop cutting everything if you want this amp in the room sound and then it will sound like shit in a mix ... so you need to find a setting that’s sound well for both .... I understand why some people use a real cab when they don’t own a tube head anymore , with this you can enjoy playing guitar like “before “. But playing guitar through studio monitors is not as great of a real amp in a room ... that’s not really the goal of These products in my opinions . I owned most of the modelers , and the axe 3 is the best . The less synthetic one . But yes it sound boxy in high gain when you play alone with it .
i am actually still doing test with the pan , with 2 irs . I have done hard pan left right and got strange surprises between amps and irs . The space of the sound with headphones is not the same when I change presets , and I don’t understand why .
did you already feel it ?
i mean : do a preset with a recto , 2 random cabs hard pan left right , and then another preset with another amp and others irs panned left right and the sound in the headphone seems to come from another way , sometimes more left , sometimes more right ... strange .
sorry for my poor English
Ok, I didn't know that term "amp in the room" was that, thank you, I thought It was that you don't feel the air moving around you from the monitors like you feel from a real cab.
And now I realize why throught a real cab sounds better, It's just because the miked cab is not in the chain, and as people say the IR is the 50% of the tone in modeleres. So I guess It make sense.
Guitar Rig I think that doesn't use real IR's so maybe It's because of that I feel it different. I have to say that in the fractal track the eq is more accurate than the one I did in GR. and yes I know what you mean that when you use same IR with different amps that the feel of space change, thats why I didn't use reverb in my first preset, I thought that It was like the "microphoonics" that you hear in real old tube amps.
 
Just to add more noise to the thread :), since I saw the Sad but true riff being tossed around, here's a patch that kinda puts you in the ballpark.

You may want to remove the modifier attached to the delay block - I use a pedal to bring in the delays and increase the level for leads.
The pitch block is there to down-tune my standard tuned guitar for the Sad But True riff.

Here's how it sounds, in the mix, then guitars only.


It's much more what I was hoping to get in my preset,
Two amps throught one line of IR's, It opens me a different perspective designing the presets. Thank you so much!!
Feel free to share more presets :)
 
yes, I think it sounds better, more .. "in your face" did you just increase the gain?
Nope, tonematch + enhancer and reverb.
One of the major differences was the frequency response between the two, in other words probably the IR. So maybe you could export or capture the IR you use in GR5 and load it in the axe. The distortion character is still differentt but imo the axe sounds better, too much fizz in GR.
The other major difference are the effects used, I'm not sure but your GR sample sounds like it has some kind of delay or psycho-acoustic effect engaged, or maybe they're baked in the reverb. You should examine what kind of FX are used in your GR patch
 
Nope, tonematch + enhancer and reverb.
One of the major differences was the frequency response between the two, in other words probably the IR. So maybe you could export or capture the IR you use in GR5 and load it in the axe. The distortion character is still differentt but imo the axe sounds better, too much fizz in GR.
The other major difference are the effects used, I'm not sure but your GR sample sounds like it has some kind of delay or psycho-acoustic effect engaged, or maybe they're baked in the reverb. You should examine what kind of FX are used in your GR patch
Thank you for your advise, and yes, after tonematch it sounds more accurate.
unfortunetly in GR I've used a block that is called "control room" which is a block were you can insert different kind of mic's in front of the virtual cabinet. I imagine that they are modeled all those microphones and through an algorithm you can move it in front of a raw IR.
Could be an idea for a new block in Fractal.
 

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It was like that in axe 2 , you could change mics in a mics list . Then they decide that the mic is included directly in the ir , something more logical in a way , as the ir is captured with a mic . If you add a sm57 filter in an ir already taken with another mic you won’t have the real sound of the capture then . But yes I was surprised too about this change when I owned the 3. You can change the distance of the mic with the speakers but cannot move it all around like in wall of sound and others ... that’s a choice . It’s more « fun « to choose a mic and then put it where you want , but the « ir » don’t exist anymore so . Just a flat cab impulse with mics filters on it (but it can works very well too and it’s very well reproduce)
 
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