Going to try FRFR again at a gig, but why is everything sounding so harsh?

[Boogie291]

This is what I put in the wish list a more "USER FRIENDLY" axe fx. I have my axe fx ultra since 2009. Maybe thousand of guitar players around the world know what is axe fx already but they're just avoiding it because they don't have time or lack of knowledge to tweak. To understand how all the parameters of the axe works you need a bachelors or PhD degree for that.

 

[Stillbruch]

To understand how all the parameters of the axe works you need a bachelors or PhD degree for that.

I don't see the problem here. You don't have to touch the advanced parameters if you don't understand them. If you bought a real tube amp, you wouldn't disassemble it and tweak the circuitry either, would you?

 

[Dimebucker]

Hey

Yeah I know that FRFR style cabinets bring some ,bright and little bit harsh tone for high volumes. There is lots of FRFR cabinets ,and I must say all they sounds different. Some are very bright ,and some of those are very dark sounding cabs. You can go some store where you can ,test many of those FRFR cabinets. And best thing is ,if you can connect your Axe-Fx those FRFR cabinets put some high gig level volumes. And get those high levels volumes ,is important because bedroom levels is another story. And my story was this ,I always hate PA-system ,FRFR cabinets and monitor sounds some years ago. And that was because ,I was playing so many years whit real guitar cabinet. And that guitar cabinet tone ,my ears was familiarize for long time. Those days I always use live situations ,only guitar cabinet sound. I never like the sound whit ,mic guitar cabinet to the PA-systems. Because it always sounds ,in my ear too bright in the stage. And in those days ,i was use only real guitar amps and 4X12 v30 guitar cabinet. But then I was bought Kemper ,and I was shot that in the FRFR cabinets ,and it was sounds like always too bright and harsh. Same like it was sounds ,whit real amp and cab to the PA-systems. And then I was reading some threads ,for those heavy EQ high and low pass filter helps for high gig volumes. And I must say ,those Eq settings did help that's for sure. But wait a minute ,my amazing guitar tone was gone. Those heavy EQ tricks ,did kill my amazing tone. There was no feeling anymore ,for that my amazing guitar tone. But then I was realize one thing ,before gig i was doing sound check. When I was playing I walk straight to the where crowd stand ,away for the stage. And then my guitar tone was amazing not bright and harsh anymore ,whit and without those heavy EQ filtering. And I was not use those ,heavy EQ high low pass filters anymore. And I was notice one thing too ,that my ears was familiarize whit those FRFR cabinets and PA-systems tone. I say it will take some time to get used to FRFR cabinets ,if your ears have been familiarize those real guitar cabinets. And im against always those heavy EQ low high pass adjusting ,get rid of harsh or bright. Because if you have done some amazing guitar tone ,last thing is screw up that tone whit those heavy EQ adjusting. Its better to try familiarize that FRFR style tone ,or just go back and plug to real guitar cabinet. Familiarize to FRFR cabinets ,take some time but its worthy.

 

[Boogie291]

Stillbruch, it is a problem to some can you not just read! If I bought a tube amp I will not disassemble it because the sound that i am expecting for that brand of guitar amp is right there blowing my face off.

 

[Stillbruch]

Stillbruch, it is a problem to some can you not just read! If I bought a tube amp I will not disassemble it because the sound that i am expecting for that brand of guitar amp is right there blowing my face off.

I am fully aware of the fact that some are experiencing issues with getting the "right sound" out of the Axe-Fx. The first sentence in my reply was perhaps misleading. I mainly replied to your request about an EZ-mode for the Axe-Fx.
Let's assume that since MIMIC all those amps are accurately portrayed in the Axe-Fx. That implies that if you connected the Axe-Fx to a decent power amp and a cab, you would get the same sound & feel as with a real amp and cab. Eventually, there would be no need for an EZ-mode, since the Axe-FX would do the same thing as the real amp.
Now if a user decided to do some other setup with, let's say FRFR, then I don't see why an EZ-mode would help him out in any way, because that would mean there were no advanced options exposed to the user. Why should that yield a better sound without "fancy things" as harshness or boominess?

 

[Andre Antunes]

I used to think the same. My guitar tones were all harsh, trebly, annoying. I was always cutting Treble/Presence cuz I hated treble, you know, that sensation of not wanting to make people's ears bleed. THEN I REALIZED "that's what a guitar is supposed to sound". You're tone wont go nowhere if the tone hasn't got that "cream" on top of it.

Most of us, guitar players, get used to a guitar tone with an amp in a room, 1 meter below our ears. Now put an SM57 in front of the amp, and listen to the mic through your headphones. The Axe FX beats the hell out of it!

I'm not saying with this that "harsness" is good and that we all must crank our trebles, but probably you'll get better results by changing you're amp sim. The Deluxe Verb is a bright amp. Oh, and another stupid advice, when playing direct live, in-ear monitoring seems to be the best to me. Not having good results with FRFR combos.

 

[simeon]

The only Monitor, sounding completely different (with a big "oohmp" from lowend to low-mids) were the RCF NX12SMA.

just to be clear, i'm using the 10" version, which doesn't have that hump in the bottom end.

 

[smcrosby]

As Yek said, try a different IR. The IR is (almost) everything! Just start flipping through IRs, ignoring the names, until you hit one that works. I've found that I almost always need to high pass at 100-120Hz and lowpass at 8k-10k. I would put those in before flipping through IRs.

Ain't it the truth!

You take an amp sim and pair it with one IR, audition it and say, "Eh?"

But take that same amp sim and pair it with another IR, audition it and you shout, "Eureka! Sweet mystery of life I have found you!"

Suddenly, you have a new favorite amp sim - or so you think. What you have really found is a new amp sim - IR pairing!

And that my fine furry Fractalite friends ... is what its all about! That and the fine tweaking of amp and cab parameters to fine tune your newly (or independently) discovered Eureka pairing.

IMHO anyway - subject to change should I discover I don't know what the heck I am blabbering about :lol which happens almost every time that I log onto this Forum - but its about the journey! Isn't it?

 

[smcrosby]

just to be clear, i'm using the 10" version, which doesn't have that hump in the bottom end.

Darn, well now I'm getting more than a little envious!

I'm only using the 8" version - when measured from the base to the tip of the cone - but, mine has two big humps in the bottom end, most likely from lack of use I'm afraid.

 

[joegold]

This is what I put in the wish list a more "USER FRIENDLY" axe fx. I have my axe fx ultra since 2009. Maybe thousand of guitar players around the world know what is axe fx already but they're just avoiding it because they don't have time or lack of knowledge to tweak. To understand how all the parameters of the axe works you need a bachelors or PhD degree for that.

The Axe-FX is the bleeding edge of guitar technology right now.
It's not exactly aimed at beginners or people with no experience with real amps and real gear, but even folks like that should be able to get some mileage out of it with just a little bit of persistence.
It's meant for pros who have been frustrated by the limitations of real amps and real gear because it addresses all of the main limitations and problems inherent in that way of doing things.

However, if you're a player who does have some experience with real amps and real cabs and real pedals, the Axe-FX II is incredibly user friendly right out of the box.
But not if you want to go FRFR.
FRFR is the door through which only the brave go through.
Unless you've got lots and lots of experience as a session player listening to your mic'd amps through studio monitors any FRFR system will sound totally foreign to you and you'll have no idea how to dial anything in.

But...
If you have a real cab that you are familiar with when running any of the real amps that are simulated in the Axe-FX II, all you need to do is to run the Axe sim (with its default values - only tweaking the gain and the tone the same way you would do on the real amp) into a decent power amp and into that same cab and it will sound very very close to what running that same amp into that same cab would sound like.

All the other issues about tweaking this impenetrable parameter or tweaking that impenetrable parameter are almost always about taming the tone in an FRFR system.
With many of the new mix IRs, the FRFR thing is getting easier and easier to dial in as well, but you need to know something about the cabs and the mics and the techniques used in recording those IRs.
Usually that's the province of recording engineers, not guitar players, especially not novice guitar players.
So if you're not experienced in those areas, for now, you kind of just have to accept what you get and try to work with it, or just stay away from FRFR until you have more experience.
And with a little bit of dicking around it still won't be that hard.
If there's too much bass with an IR that you otherwise like the sound of, then turn the bass down somewhere.
If it's too bright turn down the high frequencies somewhere.
If there's not enough gain, then turn up the gain in the Amp sim.
Etc. etc.

 

[Cainer]

IDK, I am so frustrated with it, because everything sounds stupidly harsh, trebly, and bitey. On most amp models, there's just a certain compression and weird thing happening that makes the axe sound digital. maybe the product is just not going to be right for me in regards to live use....

The double verb sounds absolutely awful IMO.....at lower gain volumes it's usable, but you can't put pedals into it or push it like you can with my actual twin or the deluxe reverb that's sitting next to it. The pedals push it to break up that has no clarity, fullness, or smoothness

Man there's got to be a solution here - I've been using the Double Verb live and it sounds incredibly sweet and spanky. Hope you can find a solution - maybe get some presets from others? I hear your frustration man!

 

[bobmeredith]

The Axe-FX is the bleeding edge of guitar technology right now.
It's not exactly aimed at beginners or people with no experience with real amps and real gear, but even folks like that should be able to get some mileage out of it with just a little bit of persistence.
It's meant for pros who have been frustrated by the limitations of real amps and real gear because it addresses all of the main limitations and problems inherent in that way of doing things.

However, if you're a player who does have some experience with real amps and real cabs and real pedals, the Axe-FX II is incredibly user friendly right out of the box.
But not if you want to go FRFR.
FRFR is the door through which only the brave go through.
Unless you've got lots and lots of experience as a session player listening to your mic'd amps through studio monitors any FRFR system will sound totally foreign to you and you'll have no idea how to dial anything in.

But...
If you have a real cab that you are familiar with when running any of the real amps that are simulated in the Axe-FX II, all you need to do is to run the Axe sim (with its default values - only tweaking the gain and the tone the same way you would do on the real amp) into a decent power amp and into that same cab and it will sound very very close to what running that same amp into that same cab would sound like.

All the other issues about tweaking this impenetrable parameter or tweaking that impenetrable parameter are almost always about taming the tone in an FRFR system.
With many of the new mix IRs, the FRFR thing is getting easier and easier to dial in as well, but you need to know something about the cabs and the mics and the techniques used in recording those IRs.
Usually that's the province of recording engineers, not guitar players, especially not novice guitar players.
So if you're not experienced in those areas, for now, you kind of just have to accept what you get and try to work with it, or just stay away from FRFR until you have more experience.
And with a little bit of dicking around it still won't be that hard.
If there's too much bass with an IR that you otherwise like the sound of, then turn the bass down somewhere.
If it's too bright turn down the high frequencies somewhere.
If there's not enough gain, then turn up the gain in the Amp sim.
Etc. etc.

A lot of wisdom here.

I might add that I don't run FRFR. I just don't see the need. I just run my Matrix into my 2 EV12L open backed boxes. I tilt my boxes back so I hear something very close to what the audience and other band members may hear. The only time I've simultaneously went FOH the sound guy said it sounded great; especially in stereo.

Personally I find the idea of an AXE, Laptop, Axe edit and the rest of my rig in a large rehearsal room a lot of run. I can play loud, and I can stand 20' away and not burn out my ears. No band members to annoy with my tweaking as well. With a variety of high quality backings there's hours of fun to be had. Doing it this way also allows me to plug into a medium sized PA and tweak the global outs until it sounds great through the PAs FRFR as well.

$100 for the studio time, once, maybe twice and I was 90% there. None of the patches tweaked in this manner were unusable or disasterous live. The trick is to resist the temptation to re tweak them at home at bedroom volumes. Now that I have a set of gig tested patches as a reference, it's not too hard to create new ones at home. I simply match the top and bottom end responses to my gig tested tones and it gets me something usuable almost straight away. A tweak or 2 at rehearsal and it's done.

Don't believe that people with amps or valve racks don't have similar problems, especially if they don't gig much. There are forums with people complaining about their guitar amp/rack systems all over the internet.

I've spent a reasonable amount of time in the studio and agree with Joe. It's a different experience and FRFR will take some getting used to.

 

[joegold]

I just run my Matrix into my 2 EV12L open backed boxes. I tilt my boxes back so I hear something very close to what the audience and other band members may hear.

Just curious if you've ever tried the Jay Mitchell foam doughnut Directivity Modifier on your EV-loaded cabs?

I was feverishly trying to get this happening for quite a while because if I could eliminate the directivity issues from my own EV-loaded cabs I would be quite happy to never get into an FRFR rig at all.
Most of the sounds I really want to play and need to play can be had quite nicely from the EV's.
But I've always struggled with and hated the beaming.
And of course the CLRs are in a league of their own in the directivity department, so I decided to take the plunge.

The 2 main reasons why I think I could never get the doughnuts really happening are:
1. McMaster-Carr has a bee up their bonnet about selling to people they don't already know especially if they're in another country, like Canada where I am.
They wouldn't even let me buy it and have it shipped to a friend in Cleveland, OH.
And although I've found other sources for what seemed to be suitable foam the doughnuts I've made with them have either not been effective enough or they've darkened my off-axis tone too much.

2. My cabs are all front-loaded and unless I use the 1/2" foam the foam comes in contact with the speaker cone.
My understanding is that the 3/4" foam works much better.

So not being sure if I've got the correct material and also not having the correct width has skewed my results negatively.

I've tried the Weber Beam Blockers but they screw up the off-axis tone even worse by making it brighter.
I'm currently using the Amp Lounge Tone Bras thingies on my cabs and they seem to be an OK compromise for now.
But I've really come to trust Jay's notions on this subject and would much rather be using his doughnut idea.
Plus I have a hard time keeping the Tone Bras from rattling with my front-loaded config.

I'm thinking of just putting some 3/4" foam on then outside of my grill even if it looks atrocious.
The other option is to get my cabs modified by someone so I have a bit more clearance between the grill cloth and the driver, but I really don't want to go through that.

Meanwhile, was this the thread where I just chewed out somebody else about staying on topic?
Oops.

 

[bobmeredith]

Just curious if you've ever tried the Jay Mitchell foam doughnut Directivity Modifier on your EV-loaded cabs?

I was feverishly trying to get this happening for quite a while because if I could eliminate the directivity issues from my own EV-loaded cabs I would be quite happy to never get into an FRFR rig at all.
Most of the sounds I really want to play and need to play can be had quite nicely from the EV's.
But I've always struggled with and hated the beaming.
And of course the CLRs are in a league of their own in the directivity department, so I decided to take the plunge.

The 2 main reasons why I think I could never get the doughnuts really happening are:
1. McMaster-Carr has a bee up their bonnet about selling to people they don't already know especially if they're in another country, like Canada where I am.
They wouldn't even let me buy it and have it shipped to a friend in Cleveland, OH.
And although I've found other sources for what seemed to be suitable foam the doughnuts I've made with them have either not been effective enough or they've darkened my off-axis tone too much.

2. My cabs are all front-loaded and unless I use the 1/2" foam the foam comes in contact with the speaker cone.
My understanding is that the 3/4" foam works much better.

So not being sure if I've got the correct material and also not having the correct width has skewed my results negatively.

I've tried the Weber Beam Blockers but they screw up the off-axis tone even worse by making it brighter.
I'm currently using the Amp Lounge Tone Bras thingies on my cabs and they seem to be an OK compromise for now.
But I've really come to trust Jay's notions on this subject and would much rather be using his doughnut idea.
Plus I have a hard time keeping the Tone Bras from rattling with my front-loaded config.

I'm thinking of just putting some 3/4" foam on then outside of my grill even if it looks atrocious.
The other option is to get my cabs modified by someone so I have a bit more clearance between the grill cloth and the driver, but I really don't want to go through that.

Meanwhile, was this the thread where I just chewed out somebody else about staying on topic?
Oops.

I've had the same problem as you......front loaded boxes. I also trust JMs views and I made myself a rough approximation of his donuts. I just gaffered these onto the front of the metal speaker grill. They did make a difference but having them stuck to the front is not practical. Also same as you, can't get the right material so not a totally fair or valid test. I simulated beam blockers by gaffering a CD to the front of the grill and it did things to the tone that I didn't like.

I set my boxes up on the floor, tilted back, spread apart by aroud 6' (2 meters to you and me) when ever I can. If I have to stack the boxes due to space I tend to notice the beaming a lot more.

 

[Andrew Male]

In the old days we had an amp, mic'd up, and a foldback mix with some of that mic'd up amp.

The axe fx through FRFR gives the mic'd up sound you would have got through the monitor, not the sound of a cranked tube amp behind you.

It just takes a leap of faith to say I don't need that real tube amp sound behind me. What I hear is now what the audience hear.

 

[joegold]

I've had the same problem as you......front loaded boxes. I also trust JMs views and I made myself a rough approximation of his donuts. I just gaffered these onto the front of the metal speaker grill. They did make a difference but having them stuck to the front is not practical. Also same as you, can't get the right material so not a totally fair or valid test. I simulated beam blockers by gaffering a CD to the front of the grill and it did things to the tone that I didn't like.

I set my boxes up on the floor, tilted back, spread apart by aroud 6' (2 meters to you and me) when ever I can. If I have to stack the boxes due to space I tend to notice the beaming a lot more.

Thanks for the details.
You too might want to check out the Tone Bras then.
Tone Bra by LA Custom Electric | dbinstrumentamp.com

They don't sound edgy like a Weber Beam Blocker or like a CD in front of the dust cap.
More like the old Stevie Ray Vaughan trick of using some duct tape in front of the cap.
Just makes the on-axis sound quite a bit mellower w/o messing up the off-axis sound too much.
Installing them optimally on a front loading cab with EVs can be a chore though.
I won't get into the details.
There are still some issues with these, as outlined in Jay's manifesto, but nowhere near as much as the Beam Blockers or other methods I'm aware of.

I recently bought some cheap amp stands to use with my EV cabs so I could both get them off the floor to reduce the coupling effect and tilt them so that the angle I hear is closer to the angle the audience would hear.
But I haven't played a gig yet on a stage that's big enough for me to use them.

But boy it would be nice to just banish directivity from my EV cabs.
I think I'd be REAL happy with that.
Then I could place them almost anywhere and be confident that what the audience is hearing isn't so far off from what I'm hearing.
I'm usually pretty selfish about that and just worry about what I'm hearing.
Otherwise I have a hard time playing.
But I do usually make an effort to not have them pointing directly at ear level of anybody in the audience when possible.

 

[Stratoblaster]

I've been going the FRFR route since 2009 with my Ultra and, if I had to make a general, broad statement about FRFR, can say it's a bit of a struggle unless you have truly FRFR/flat/uncolored/transparent speakers. Having to eliminate/compensate/work around any coloring by the output system is what takes the time, effort, and causes the pain and frustration, so many users seem to have when trying to craft tones IMO.

 

[Casper]

I suspect your issue is the Q12, which can be shrill, imo.

Try out an EV elx112p - cheaper and sounds better.

The first dozen or so default presets are practically plug and play thru a PA, with just the basic adjustments needed, so you can use those as a reference.

 

[supersonic]

Supersonic - you ADD 4k?! If that's the case, I would suggest we either have very different tastes in sound or the Q12a and the CLR are voiced quite differently

Still - variety keeps the world going round. I'm sure none of us would be 100% satisfied with another members set up from the get-go.

I was just offering a patch which is a standard rock tone. If this does not work with the OP I'm guessing something is not right, could be something as simple as the cab sim is not activated! As mention in this thread, a FRFR signal SHOULD be bright as opposed to a cab in the room tone which is more than likely not at ear level.

 

[Hucky]

Hi Ben,

I run my Axe II through a Matrix GT1000FX and 2 Q12s, had the same problem with excessive harshness. Trying to make FRFR work for me I arrived at almost the same Global EQ settings Daribo posted. I guess it would be a good idea to check out his settings, might help you, too!

Cheers, Hans