Getting a drummer to play in time

henryrobinett said:
Haven't you ever heard some great live recordings? There was this great recording of a jazzy funk record with Steve Gadd. Live. Go to the beginning and the the end and it is very noticably faster. So what? The music and vibe is killer and completely appropriate to the music.

As great and convenient as drum machines are - I was an early adopter with Linndrum. But it's ruined drummers and their interaction with the band and the band with drummers. It's like auto-tune. Nobody sings like that but now we're used to hearing things being sung in robotic perfection. And guitar - editing, quantizing, adjust soundbites, slowing down and speeding up later. It's kind of terrible.
Click to expand...
There is still skill involved in executing an even / unnoticeable accel during a song.

In a recent musical theater drum gig, I confessed to our MD that I was pushing the choruses and lagging the verses. The delta was probably < 5 BPM in each case, but it was a good exercise for me to focus on playing just behind the beat (verse) and just ahead and a few BPM faster (chorus) and making the transition smooth.

A good drummer can make it sound natural. I'm less bothered by speedup / slowdown than I am with irregular subdivisions. If the drummer can't nail the eighth- and sixteenth-note subdivisions, there is no groove. Speed up during fills - no groove. Kick and Bass guitar not playing the same rhythm - no groove. Can't nail the difference between a triplet v. dotted-eighth feel - no groove. Etc. etc. etc.
 
I posted about this awhile back. Most guitar players don't have as metronomic time as they think they do. This is coming from both sides of the the kit, as a guitarist -and- a drummer. The big lesson is that it has to be communicated to the drummer where you want things, or having enough trust that the drummer will put the groove and tempo where the band feels it and make it feel good if they're not locked to a click track or grid.

Here is a perfect example. This is the great Steve Jordan (currently filling Charlie Watts' chair with the stones) on drums backing up John Mayer. I don't think John Mayer would hire someone who can't play in time. But, if you listen to the intro on the sonfg below it is abundantly clear that Steve Jordan --slows down-- to put the tempo exactly where John is feeling it. If you listen to them playing this song 2 years later on the "Where the light is" live album, they play this song many clicks faster. This is a masterclass in how a great drummer "follows" an artist where they're feeling it and why guys like Jordan has played with everyone from Clapton, to Keef to Mayer and has been on more records than most.

Another key spot to listen for is around the guitar solo at 5:30 to the breaks back into the verse. Jordan decides to drop the hi-hat to stop dictating the time and clearly waits for John to re-establish the tempo before popping back into the groove. There's probably footage somewhere of this performance but I bet Jordan is watching John like a hawk to see his cues, his body language etc.



This is probably the most common thing I run into as a drummer that I always ask in rehearsals or on the bandstand if I am not using a click/backing tracks live. "Do you want me to put it where you guy are feeling it? Or do you want me to just hold it down?". Depends on the song, and/or style but there are plenty of bands that their entire time feel is how the push and pull against a drummer who holds down the center. And others, are defined by how the band pushes and pulls their time as a unit.

In other words, if the drummer is a good drummer he is speeding up or slowing down by choice, not because he can't play in time. Just communicate what you want and you'll most likely get it.
 
RoshRoslin said:
I posted about this awhile back. Most guitar players don't have as metronomic time as they think they do. This is coming from both sides of the the kit, as a guitarist -and- a drummer. The big lesson is that it has to be communicated to the drummer where you want things, or having enough trust that the drummer will put the groove and tempo where the band feels it and make it feel good if they're not locked to a click track or grid.

Here is a perfect example. This is the great Steve Jordan (currently filling Charlie Watts' chair with the stones) on drums backing up John Mayer. I don't think John Mayer would hire someone who can't play in time. But, if you listen to the intro on the sonfg below it is abundantly clear that Steve Jordan --slows down-- to put the tempo exactly where John is feeling it. If you listen to them playing this song 2 years later on the "Where the light is" live album, they play this song many clicks faster. This is a masterclass in how a great drummer "follows" an artist where they're feeling it and why guys like Jordan has played with everyone from Clapton, to Keef to Mayer and has been on more records than most.

Another key spot to listen for is around the guitar solo at 5:30 to the breaks back into the verse. Jordan decides to drop the hi-hat to stop dictating the time and clearly waits for John to re-establish the tempo before popping back into the groove. There's probably footage somewhere of this performance but I bet Jordan is watching John like a hawk to see his cues, his body language etc.



This is probably the most common thing I run into as a drummer that I always ask in rehearsals or on the bandstand if I am not using a click/backing tracks live. "Do you want me to put it where you guy are feeling it? Or do you want me to just hold it down?". Depends on the song, and/or style but there are plenty of bands that their entire time feel is how the push and pull against a drummer who holds down the center. And others, are defined by how the band pushes and pulls their time as a unit.

In other words, if the drummer is a good drummer he is speeding up or slowing down by choice, not because he can't play in time. Just communicate what you want and you'll most likely get it.
Click to expand...


Great post!

I sometimes wonder if we can get trapped into being "prisoners of the moment," as a result of our
infatuation with new tech that has us overlooking all the compelling music that was created, and
then performed, prior to click tracks---and all the other jazz that conspires to convince us that
we are always better off when we use those latest "tools of the trade."

It's weird how Miles Davis did just fine with Jimmy Cobb on drums doing exactly what you mention
Steve Jordan doing above. Same for Bonham with Zeppelin. There is drama (tension and release) in
playing sans a click, drama that you simply can never achieve when you are chained to a click. Stating
that doesn't make a click obsolete either. Click tracks are not going anywhere. Yet, to suggest that those
who are opposed, or just indifferent, to click tracks as somehow inferior is just balderdash. Like you mention,
the ability to drift and flow in/as/through time is a conscious choice, not an unconscious lack of proficiency,
or a deficit of skill.
 
Last edited:
RoshRoslin said:
I posted about this awhile back. Most guitar players don't have as metronomic time as they think they do. This is coming from both sides of the the kit, as a guitarist -and- a drummer. The big lesson is that it has to be communicated to the drummer where you want things, or having enough trust that the drummer will put the groove and tempo where the band feels it and make it feel good if they're not locked to a click track or grid.

Here is a perfect example. This is the great Steve Jordan (currently filling Charlie Watts' chair with the stones) on drums backing up John Mayer. I don't think John Mayer would hire someone who can't play in time. But, if you listen to the intro on the sonfg below it is abundantly clear that Steve Jordan --slows down-- to put the tempo exactly where John is feeling it. If you listen to them playing this song 2 years later on the "Where the light is" live album, they play this song many clicks faster. This is a masterclass in how a great drummer "follows" an artist where they're feeling it and why guys like Jordan has played with everyone from Clapton, to Keef to Mayer and has been on more records than most.

Another key spot to listen for is around the guitar solo at 5:30 to the breaks back into the verse. Jordan decides to drop the hi-hat to stop dictating the time and clearly waits for John to re-establish the tempo before popping back into the groove. There's probably footage somewhere of this performance but I bet Jordan is watching John like a hawk to see his cues, his body language etc.



This is probably the most common thing I run into as a drummer that I always ask in rehearsals or on the bandstand if I am not using a click/backing tracks live. "Do you want me to put it where you guy are feeling it? Or do you want me to just hold it down?". Depends on the song, and/or style but there are plenty of bands that their entire time feel is how the push and pull against a drummer who holds down the center. And others, are defined by how the band pushes and pulls their time as a unit.

In other words, if the drummer is a good drummer he is speeding up or slowing down by choice, not because he can't play in time. Just communicate what you want and you'll most likely get it.
Click to expand...

Good example. Playing theater gigs adds a whole new level of "following". Sometimes the cast runs away with the tempo, misses an entrance, or god knows what (we can't see them) so it's all done by ear and lots of panic'd eyes watching the MD who actually can see and conducts the cast.
 
A changing meter has as much emotional impact as changing dynamics. IMO Music should have a stretch and compression in it. That's what makes it alive and dynamic. It should still have a steady swing but it's how you rub up against the swing that creates and releases tension in the listener.

When the Levee Breaks has an imperfect meter but swings like a 25 ton weight.
 
There's an iOS app called Beat Mirror (similar to LiveBPM), where you give it a target tempo and it "listens" and gives you a read-out of your tempo as a moving horizontal line on a time vs tempo grid. It's a nice tool for training. It's also relatively unobtrusive as a tempo indicator as you can ignore it or use it to validate your hunches, etc.
 
Hellbat said:
A changing meter has as much emotional impact as changing dynamics. IMO Music should have a stretch and compression in it. That's what makes it alive and dynamic. It should still have a steady swing but it's how you rub up against the swing that creates and releases tension in the listener.

When the Levee Breaks has an imperfect meter but swings like a 25 ton weight.
Click to expand...

I concur. There is really nothing natural or native about a steady tick-tock of a click. Forcing someone to
listen to a clock is literally a form of torture that has been used to break people down. We didn't evolve
to appreciate something so unnaturally consistent.

For me, the way music is "constructed" now, in reliance on a machine-like tempo that doesn't waver, induces
eventual listening fatigue, not unlike spiking 1k until your ears beg it to stop!
 
la szum said:
I concur. There is really nothing natural or native about a steady tick-tock of a click. Forcing someone to
listen to a clock is literally a form of torture that has been used to break people down. We didn't evolve
to appreciate something so unnaturally consistent.

For me, the way music is "constructed" now, in reliance on a machine-like tempo that doesn't waver, induces
eventual listening fatigue, not unlike spiking 1k until your ears beg it to stop!
Click to expand...
I agree with torture by clock, but not the rest. In modern music I personally find a steady tempo non-anxiety producing, and vice-versa.
 
Guy who's playing drums in a cover band thing I'm involved with also sings at times, and when he sings, he speeds up. He sings lead on Comfortably Numb. By the time it gets to the solo at the end that thing is invariably 10-20 BPM faster than how we started.

He knows it, too. "Yeah, I always speed up towards the end there". So....maybe do something about it? It's damn near unlistenable - or at least unplayable - by the end, really takes all the joy out of that solo if you're getting pushed through it.

I don't know how much longer I'll be able to deal with this particular project...I'm not saying I'm the greatest player who ever lived, but I've been doing this for almost 30 years, and it's a different dynamic when you're pretty obviously the 'best guy' in the band vs being the 'worst guy'. You end up feeling like you have to dumb everything down instead of being inspired to do better.
 
vetteboy79 said:
Guy who's playing drums in a cover band thing I'm involved with also sings at times, and when he sings, he speeds up. He sings lead on Comfortably Numb. By the time it gets to the solo at the end that thing is invariably 10-20 BPM faster than how we started.

He knows it, too. "Yeah, I always speed up towards the end there". So....maybe do something about it? It's damn near unlistenable - or at least unplayable - by the end, really takes all the joy out of that solo if you're getting pushed through it.

I don't know how much longer I'll be able to deal with this particular project...I'm not saying I'm the greatest player who ever lived, but I've been doing this for almost 30 years, and it's a different dynamic when you're pretty obviously the 'best guy' in the band vs being the 'worst guy'. You end up feeling like you have to dumb everything down instead of being inspired to do better.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's no fun. And that's one song you definitely don't rush. Especially that much. Wow!

I can't even listen to bands playing live from the "cocaine era", when it's obvious they're all amped up, and totally rushing the song. Others are like, "Oh I like the energy." 10bpm faster, is just too fast. IMHO
 
FYI: Tama has recently released the RW200 Rhythm Watch.

The first timekeeper designed specifically for the band's timekeeper, TAMA's Rhythm Watch has everything a drummer needs to make sure they stay on tempo-live and in the studio. Like the original Rhythm Watch, the RW200 features plenty of volume to use while playing real drums, a dial for quick tempo adjustments, separate volumes for quarter notes, eighths and triplets, but now features a large, easy to read backlit display, a more durable housing and keypad, and even more memory for pattern storage

https://www.tama.com/eu/products/detail/rw200.html
1660716767874.png

BTW: I've recently seen a meme at my Facebook's feed about a woman unsatisfied in bed with her boyfriend because he was not able to follow a metronome. Does your drummer has a girlfriend? You could ask him if he's OK with his sexual life 😂

And if all the above fails, do not forget the brute-force method on post #90
 
Last edited:
It’s all about pulse and pocket really. Tempochanges are a legitimate tool to optimize your vibe. Just listen to Stairway to Heaven speeding up to great effect. Having said that, a drummer that’s all over the place can be a nightmare. You know the ones I’m talking about, the ones who come in just a little bit faster after a break. Not because they want to or because they are “guarding the groove”, but because they’re not on top of their game.
 
Piing said:
FYI: Tama has recently released the RW200 Rhythm Watch.

The first timekeeper designed specifically for the band's timekeeper, TAMA's Rhythm Watch has everything a drummer needs to make sure they stay on tempo-live and in the studio. Like the original Rhythm Watch, the RW200 features plenty of volume to use while playing real drums, a dial for quick tempo adjustments, separate volumes for quarter notes, eighths and triplets, but now features a large, easy to read backlit display, a more durable housing and keypad, and even more memory for pattern storage
Click to expand...

The drummer who I play with in a couple of different bands bought one of these a few months back and it's one of the greatest things ever IMO. Ends every argument over tempo, locks in the proper tempo, and is a final authority on all of that. It helps everyone and it's especially useful when musicians start a song either too fast or too slow constantly and argue about it constantly.

There are several songs we do where even a slight bump in tempo makes some of the guitar parts that much harder and this device fixes that. I also love it when it corrects a laggy tempo where you get the sense that you're running through molasses but other band members say "the tempo is right on."

Interestingly enough, another band he plays in has strongly rejected this use of this device, particularly the guitar player who always insists on slowing the tempo down, big time, when he starts a song and won't be pulled to the right tempo. It's too bad since, while they are great musicians, etc., they sound lifeless and are a 'drag' for many songs.

We are not a total slave to all recorded tempos though; for instance we do Rainbow's "Man On A Silver Mountain" which we all feel is super draggy on the studio record and bump it up to where it has more life and this gadget locks that in every time. We also don't use it for every song, just the ones that we feel can be a 'problem' at times.
 
Last edited:
I’ve been playing in cover bands for a few years now and when I first started, it was just a barebones bar and pub “old man” cover band with no tracks or clicks. I liked the freedom of the song being able to go wherever our vibes took it as long as we Didn’t go too far into the musical woods. Then I moved onto play lead guitar in an agency cover band for a while, and we used tracks and a click. At first, I didn’t like it. It felt like handcuffs, and you could never really venture too far from the show/tracks. But I grew to love it because it keeps things tight. Now, I’m back filling in for my previous bar cover band with no click or tracks, and I’m much more clearly able to feel how all over the place timing wise we can get. Without a click, I feel a little speeding up naturally is just going to happen by nature. It gets tricky because the drummer speeds up randomly sometimes and the singer has no prior formal training so he doesn’t fully understand musical timing or proper cues. They’re both great players and we have great chemistry as a group so it works fine. My point in all that is just that after using tracks and a click live, it allowed me to grow and see current Live gigging issues
 
Last edited:
pauly said:
HI all,

Ok - we all have our 'things', so lets avoid 'just use a click track'.
I play with a drummer that I like - He's a good bloke, hits the drums hard, I've known him for 100 years, and he's not let me down.
He does, however refuse to play with a click track (actually, he just can't)... It sucks all the fun out of music for him, and he spends so much energy trying to match the clock, it all just falls apart. I'm a little tired of listening back to recordings and being unable to use them due to tempo fluctuations.
So - We play without the click... but geeze we speed up so much!
I've tried a click track - no
I've tried a light flashing in time.. No
I've tried an echo in the monitors in time... not really.

Any ideas how I can setup the studio to get a solid tempo while we play?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Does he like playing along to his favorite songs?

I worked with a drummer once who couldn't groove with a click, but if you gave him a basic beat with a drum machine, then he could groove with it in time all day.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom