Getting a drummer to play in time

P

pauly

Fractal Fanatic
HI all,

Ok - we all have our 'things', so lets avoid 'just use a click track'.
I play with a drummer that I like - He's a good bloke, hits the drums hard, I've known him for 100 years, and he's not let me down.
He does, however refuse to play with a click track (actually, he just can't)... It sucks all the fun out of music for him, and he spends so much energy trying to match the clock, it all just falls apart. I'm a little tired of listening back to recordings and being unable to use them due to tempo fluctuations.
So - We play without the click... but geeze we speed up so much!
I've tried a click track - no
I've tried a light flashing in time.. No
I've tried an echo in the monitors in time... not really.

Any ideas how I can setup the studio to get a solid tempo while we play?

Thanks.
 
It sounds like you've tried it all. What else is there?

I have great respect for a good drummer. In the end though keeping time comes down to discipline and part of that is training. I hated playing with a metronome at first. I remember, just like your friend, spending SO much energy and focus just to stay on the beat. Now though, it's just second nature (and now I use a metronome every time I practice, I don't feel right w/o it).

I guess what I'm saying is, in the end it just comes down to him and there's only so much you can do. Sorry, if that's not much help, but just be honest with yourself about the situation. You can't force someone to exercise that sort of discipline; he's got to want it.
 
Sorry, there's really no substitute for using a click track to stay on a consistent tempo. There is an adjustment period for any drummer that didn't start playing with one. I've had quite a few that needed time to get used to it but in the end they get it and it becomes more of a guide than a constraint. It's something they must practice with on their own. They cannot practice without it and hope to play with it during rehearsals or gigs.

I suppose, if you're using in-ears, you could send him a track of the song in his monitor mix to play to.
 
This would require everyone to have IEMs: What if the whole band had a click/shaker in their ears and drummer could choose the volume levels of the mix he heard. His mix might have the guitar and vocals up with the click mixed in so it sounded more natural or whatever his preference might be. If everyone was in time it might work.
 
DallasGlenn2005 said:
This would require everyone to have IEMs: What if the whole band had a click/shaker in their ears and drummer could choose the volume levels of the mix he heard. His mix might have the guitar and vocals up with the click mixed in so it sounded more natural or whatever his preference might be. If everyone was in time it might work.
Click to expand...
Developing the ability to listen to others (or a click track/metronome) while you play is a skill that's got to be developed.

W/o having met this guy it just sounds like the classic case of someone with "tunnel vision". It takes effort to break out of that and really play with others. The drummer has the luxury of being the "heart beat" so they can often get away with it (though causing frustration to others).
 
Keeping time is a fundamental skill — and obligation — of a drummer. You say he’s never let you down. But the truth is, he lets you down every time. It’s like playing with a guitarist who hits the wrong chords. It just doesn’t work, as you’ve found.

You could try to keep him on tempo with nods and body language. But then, bang goes your energy.

I’m with @JoKeR III. He can learn to play with a click if he goes offline and works on it himself. Playing with a click is a learned skill, like hitting a snare.

One last-ditch fix: if you’re playing a cover, put the whole bloody song in his ear. :)
 
How out of time is he playing? To be honest, I’d get rid of my drummer if he played like a robot. Gotta have some swing.

Maybe track him using an electric kit and then quantize it?
 
I've played with drummers that are like human metronomes, and they're lively, can improvise, and, you ALWAYS know they're going to be on the downbeat at every turnaround. YOU KNOW where they are. That's really important in an ensemble setting, whatever type of music it is.

When you're playing with a drummer who can't do that it's stressful. I played in stage band in college and learned that the guitar is part of the rhythm section, at least part of the time, we're a glue between the drums and piano, and part of that big engine that makes a song come to life. And, when a drummer isn't part of that, for whatever reason, it just makes our life as the guitarist that much harder. Some drummers suck the life out of every song until we don't want to be on stage with them and it affects our enjoyment of the music.

It's especially hard when it's someone who we like as a friend, but it'd probably be best to sit down and tell him he needs some lessons to focus on that. A good teacher can find the perfect way to demonstrate the problem and find the fix. Without that I'm afraid it'll eat at you and that hurts even worse.
 
Hi @ruso

It's not that bad..... but it's bad enough :) I really like the way he plays, it's just this pesky timing thing haha.
After putting Neumanns all around the kit, and spending time to get a great live sounding recording, I sure don't want to go the midi drum route!
Have always loved the sound of a well mic'd acoustic kit played hard.

Thanks though!
Pauly

ruso said:
How out of time is he playing? To be honest, I’d get rid of my drummer if he played like a robot. Gotta have some swing.

Maybe track him using an electric kit and then quantize it?
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Leon,

I'll show it to him!

Pauly
2112 said:
There's a great bit that starts around 4:40 in this video talking about "burying the click". The drummer in my band got me onto this technique years ago and it changed my life. A great skill to practice for any musician.

Click to expand...
 
Thanks Greg,

That will not happen. We are both from the crustaceous era and therefore pretty set in our ways. Music is an expensive hobby to us, that's all.
I tell him he plays like shit, and he just counters by telling me I play like shit - and he's right :eek:

Pauly

Greg Ferguson said:
I've played with drummers that are like human metronomes, and they're lively, can improvise, and, you ALWAYS know they're going to be on the downbeat at every turnaround. YOU KNOW where they are. That's really important in an ensemble setting, whatever type of music it is.

When you're playing with a drummer who can't do that it's stressful. I played in stage band in college and learned that the guitar is part of the rhythm section, at least part of the time, we're a glue between the drums and piano, and part of that big engine that makes a song come to life. And, when a drummer isn't part of that, for whatever reason, it just makes our life as the guitarist that much harder. Some drummers suck the life out of every song until we don't want to be on stage with them and it affects our enjoyment of the music.

It's especially hard when it's someone who we like as a friend, but it'd probably be best to sit down and tell him he needs some lessons to focus on that. A good teacher can find the perfect way to demonstrate the problem and find the fix. Without that I'm afraid it'll eat at you and that hurts even worse.
Click to expand...
 
pauly said:
HI all,

Ok - we all have our 'things', so lets avoid 'just use a click track'.
I play with a drummer that I like - He's a good bloke, hits the drums hard, I've known him for 100 years, and he's not let me down.
He does, however refuse to play with a click track (actually, he just can't)... It sucks all the fun out of music for him, and he spends so much energy trying to match the clock, it all just falls apart. I'm a little tired of listening back to recordings and being unable to use them due to tempo fluctuations.
So - We play without the click... but geeze we speed up so much!
I've tried a click track - no
I've tried a light flashing in time.. No
I've tried an echo in the monitors in time... not really.

Any ideas how I can setup the studio to get a solid tempo while we play?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
“Hits the drums hard” is not in and of itself a good thing. It’s usually a bad thing and demonstrates a drummer who has poor dynamics.

His inability to play to a click IS letting you down. You simply need a better drummer or have to come to terms with him being your bands weak link and play to that standard.
 
Learn to March! In Marching Band, we learned t gauge our tempo through our feet! At a seminar w/Tommy Emmanuel, he said to be a great musician/guitarist, you have to do three thing:

1. Practice
2. Record yourself and listen to it
3. Tap your foot and/or move your head/body to keep the groove
 
Hi Bruce,
Sorry, I didn’t explain his playing correctly. I should have said “he plays the drums hard when it’s appropriate”.
Thanks
Pauly


Bruce Sokolovic said:
“Hits the drums hard” is not in and of itself a good thing. It’s usually a bad thing and demonstrates a drummer who has poor dynamics.

His inability to play to a click IS letting you down. You simply need a better drummer or have to come to terms with him being your bands weak link and play to that standard.
Click to expand...
 
pauly said:
HI all,

Ok - we all have our 'things', so lets avoid 'just use a click track'.
I play with a drummer that I like - He's a good bloke, hits the drums hard, I've known him for 100 years, and he's not let me down.
He does, however refuse to play with a click track (actually, he just can't)... It sucks all the fun out of music for him, and he spends so much energy trying to match the clock, it all just falls apart. I'm a little tired of listening back to recordings and being unable to use them due to tempo fluctuations.
So - We play without the click... but geeze we speed up so much!
I've tried a click track - no
I've tried a light flashing in time.. No
I've tried an echo in the monitors in time... not really.

Any ideas how I can setup the studio to get a solid tempo while we play?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Here's a good exercise you can suggest.

Play with a quarter note click
Play with a half note click (2 per bar on 1 and 3)
Play with a click on 2 & 4 (same as above but offset)
Play with a whole note click (1 per bar, downbeat only)
Play with a click every 2nd downbeat, 3rd, 4th...

These are exercises anyone can use to improve their internal clock.

I'm not suggesting using these ideas while recording.
 
Hi favance,
Yes I agree - if there’s one painful truth, it’s recording! 😂
Thanks
Pauly

favance said:
Learn to March! In Marching Band, we learned t gauge our tempo through our feet! At a seminar w/Tommy Emmanuel, he said to be a great musician/guitarist, you have to do three thing:

1. Practice
2. Record yourself and listen to it
3. Tap your foot and/or move your head/body to keep the groove
Click to expand...
 
pauly said:
HI all,

Ok - we all have our 'things', so lets avoid 'just use a click track'.
I play with a drummer that I like - He's a good bloke, hits the drums hard, I've known him for 100 years, and he's not let me down.
He does, however refuse to play with a click track (actually, he just can't)... It sucks all the fun out of music for him, and he spends so much energy trying to match the clock, it all just falls apart. I'm a little tired of listening back to recordings and being unable to use them due to tempo fluctuations.

Any ideas how I can setup the studio to get a solid tempo while we play?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
First things first: does he understand this is a problem?
If he doesn't, then your challenge is different.
If this is the case, record some rehearsals and then play them back, pointing out the trouble areas, if he is the kind of guy who can be receptive to constructive criticism.
But he won't ever be "all-in" on fixing the issue if he doesn't really think it's an issue, and just a case of the guitarist bitching about nothing.

If he does realize it is an issue, then you are halfway there. Having played drums to a click for well over a decade, I can tell you it is just like every other skill I learned on the drums: I had to actually practice it. The excuse that a decent drummer "can't" do it is just that, an excuse.
I hear what you're saying about "sucking the fun" out of music, but often that is just a rationalization for someone who doesn't want to do something.
The click tracks I designed have a clave on 1,2,3&4, a tambourine on 1&3, and a light cowbell on 1, all at different volumes. It makes for a much more musical click and gives the drummer a clear understanding of where he is at every point in the click. Try it! Or come up with your own version of click musicality. Have him play to a full percussion track (congas, bongos, bells, etc.). Whatever works.
And do your best to explain to him how both you and he don't want to be listening to tracks five years from now and be frustrated by how much the tempo varies. Once those drum tracks are done, they live on forever, good or bad.
 
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