FM3 w Different Guitars (pickup levels)

Hi all

Thanks for the suggestions on how to work around this. I guess I am just being lazy but in 2 years I haven't had to press a button on my pedal other than tuner. We play a wide variety of covers and we do not have a sound tech, light tech etc. It is all done by me on stage and with LOTS of midi automation; Guitars, Bass, Vocals, Lights, Mixer etc.

The rationale is that I want to play and perform, not be in my 'guitar tech bubble' having to fiddle with settings or even think about them too much. It is all done up front and the controller (Ableton Live) controls the show as a tech would. I just play and perform. Thats the way it has been at least.

Previously been using a Quad Cortex box, which I have to say has been excellent (mostly) but I wanted to reduce setup/tear down time and a big part of that is getting all the wires and crap off the floor and into a pre-wired rack. QC don't do a rack unit, hence the move to Fractal.
Our live rig has the FX3 in it which of course will do what I am worrying about here, but I needed to have something portable to work on and setup patches etc when not using the live rig. Carrying a rack unit around is a non-starter, way to big and heavy. The FM3 coupled with the FX3 seemed the perfect solution.

Yes I realise I can add pedals (trying to get away form all that), have blocks I can switch on/off (trying to avoid that too, and automating it with midi and scenes, whilst a solution is just more work for a work-around)

I dont mean this to sound like I am being negative, I really am not. I love what I have seen/heard of the FM3 so far. I used it with my Tele and Les Paul to practice and it sounds and feels amazing. Then I plugged the 175 in to run through some swing stuff and suddenly the wonderful chime sounding Deluxe Reverb patch was like a neutered cat.

Yes I could have twiddly bits to adjust it. Yes I could have separate patches for the 175, but it is all more work and I want to spend my time playing not twiddling.

When was the last time you went to a big name band gig and saw them hold up the show whilst they stoop over their pedal fiddling with settings? I dont ever recall seeing it. They have techs to do that for them.

And one final point. If the input level control is NOT needed, why is it fitted to the FM9 & FX3??? Hmmmm :)

Thanks again for the ideas, I do appreciate it. Any more brain waves please let me know ;)


Cheers
Mark
 
Input trim is your friend. That’s what you use to compensate for differences in pickup output (or to increase/decrease overall gain structure separate from preamp gain). That’s how you get amps that otherwise seem hotter than real world counterparts to chill out (jazz tone, funk rhythm). Given your comfort and familiarity with midi and automation, it should be simple to have presets for different guitars triggered by your setup. If you were using real world amps, you’d certainly have to use some compensatory mechanism to account for the differences in gain levels and tones desired. Not sure what makes it seem so complicated given the complexity of what you must be running already to automate your whole stage world.
 
MikeyB59 said:
Input trim is your friend. That’s what you use to compensate for differences in pickup output (or to increase/decrease overall gain structure separate from preamp gain). That’s how you get amps that otherwise seem hotter than real world counterparts to chill out (jazz tone, funk rhythm). Given your comfort and familiarity with midi and automation, it should be simple to have presets for different guitars triggered by your setup. If you were using real world amps, you’d certainly have to use some compensatory mechanism to account for the differences in gain levels and tones desired. Not sure what makes it seem so complicated given the complexity of what you must be running already to automate your whole stage world.
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It sound like you are referring to the 'Input Trim' parameter on the Amp block. While the info that you posted is correct, and useful. It is completely different than the FM3 'Input Pad' parameter initially being discussed in this thread.

These two parameters are often confused with each other.
 
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AlexGuitar said:
I thought this is what they "Input 1 / Instrument" parameter did? Or do they both do the same thing, but this is a broad range adjustment and that is for fine-tuning?

@Moke - You gave some great advice on a similar thread earlier - I'd love for you to chime in.
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The FM3 doesn't currently have the variable 'Input 1 / Instrument' parameter. It instead, had an 'Input 1 Pad' parameter with four possible values, as explained in post #7. But it also has the same volume auto compensation.
 
UKMark said:
Our live rig has the FX3 in it which of course will do what I am worrying about here...
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How does the FX3 solve the problem in a way the FM3 doesn't? For clarification, which parameter/setting are you referring to when saying "Input Level"? As @Moke mentioned, "input level" can be used to describe a few parameters/settings.
 
There are many other parameters to affect the level of your guitar entering the 'grid'. It can be done globally, or on a per-preset basis.
The 'Input 1 / Instrument' parameter on the Axe-Fx III and FM9, and the 'Input 1 Pad' parameter on the FM3 are only for optimizing the levels going into the A/D converters. And DO NOT alter your level hitting the presets.
 
Moke said:
The 'Input 1 / Instrument' parameter on the Axe-Fx III and FM9, and the 'Input 1 Pad' parameter on the FM3 are only for optimizing the levels going into the A/D converters. And DO NOT alter your level hitting the presets.
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I realise this but the FX3/FM9 offer signal boost and cut. FM3 only cut. Cut is fine for hot guitars to bring them down to a non-clip level. But my issue is getting a very low level output Guitar UP to a standard input level. On every other modeller/profiler I have used, there is a global input level control that can cut and boost, usually provided with some degree of metering so that you get your input signal to hit about -10db on the meters when hitting a loud chord. That way, switching guitars that have different pick-up levels is as easy as plug-in, strike a G chord, adjust input trim to set metering to a consistent level.
clearly that can be done on the FX3 & FM9, but not the FM3 (only pad down).
If it wasn’t a useful/necessary function, why is it deemed suitable to fit on the higher end units?
 
Well it doesn’t work for me, having to tweak patches or have multiple patches every time I switch guitars. I will contact @ZenRigs Man at G66. They have been super helpful so far. Hopefully they will exchange it for an FM9 which does have the input trim. Thanks to everyone here for your ideas and help. Great community.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
Each unit has a target audience. The FM3 is considered the entry-level unit, that happens to be very portable. The FM9 and FX3 are targeted at users who have more demanding uses. Why? Because.
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No worries, obviously a mistake on my part for not checking the fine details of the spec. Hopefully an exchange with the good folks at G66 will get me up and running.
thanks for all the good ideas though. 🙏
 
I don't think you have to change units...

Set your global settings input pad setting for your highest output guitar so you never clip the converters, and then just use whatever guitar you want. The lower output guitar will have a lower level hitting the amp, but this would be true in real life as well.

Maybe I'm just not understanding the problem - can someone explain it to me?
 
AlexGuitar said:
Maybe I'm just not understanding the problem - can someone explain it to me?
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With the kind of shows we play, the music needs to flow without a pause. We don’t have any tech’s running sound etc, all done from stage. So I can’t be faffing around on stage twiddling level settings on every patch as we come to use it (one patch per song) if I have changed guitars to a lower output, quieter guitar. IE, I may want the sound of my 175 for a section of the show but I do n want the sound levels to drop so it can’t be heard. Right now I am using a Quad Cortex which has a global input level adjustment (with a meter). It’s a one off tweak; plug in new guitar, hit a G chord couple of times, set input control so meter is ‘tickling the red’, job done. Every patch from then on will have the same loudness as the patches did with my previous guitar, just sound different with the 175. Which I assume is exactly what Fractal intend you do with the same controls on the FM9 & FX3. But for some reason, not there on the FM3.

The fact that no one here is seeing as a problem this makes me think I have got something very wrong in my thoughts? But so far I don’t see any work arounds that don’t involve either lots of duplicate patches for different guitars or or lots of faffing around on-stage making adjustments to each patch I use when I switch guitars. Maybe people are more comfortable with spending time between songs twiddling with pedal settings while everyone is waiting?

I also wanted to make the FM3 my ‘development’ platform for patches that get created in rehearsals and transferred into the FX3 which is locked away in the rack of the live rig. The last thing I want to be doing is having to subsequently make changes to all the patches I transfer into the FX3 because I made levelling tweaks to them just to work around the limitations of the FM3. I did discuss all this with a pres-sales support guy at Fractal who assured me that FM3 patches will drop into the FX3 no problem. Which from a CPU usage perspective is true I am sure. But the practicality of the FM3 levels vs FX3 doesnt seem to work.

I actually would prefer to keep the FM3 if I could sort this out, I travel a lot and the smaller size is ideal for my needs.
 
@UKMark, I think that you keep missing something really important. So let me try to explain it a little better.

The 'Input Pad' (FM3) and the 'Input 1 / Instrument' (Axe-Fx III/FM9) parameters, that are tied to the 'Input 1' LEDs, DO NOT affect the actual level of your guitar entering the grid for processing. It only affect the level of your guitar entering the A/D converters. The actual level entering the grid is inversely volume compensated to preserve the original level of the guitar.

The newly added (Axe-Fx III/FM9) global 'Input 1 Gain' parameter, in the same 'Input' tab of the I/O menu, can globally increase or decrease your level entering the grid, and is independent of presets. But it is NOT tied to the 'Input 1' LEDs. So there will be no visual indicator of the level adjustments made. It can be assigned to the Per-Preset or Global Performance page for easy access at a live show. But you may have to determine ahead of time, at home or rehearsals, what values work for each of your guitar and memorize them, or have them listed somewhere.

Another option is to source a small analog pedal (with an LED meter?) to place in front of the FM3 that can alter the level of your guitars before it enters the FM3.
 
Hi @Moke, thanks for getting involved and helping, much appreciated.
Moke said:
The actual level entering the grid is inversely volume compensated to preserve the original level of the guitar.
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So..

Are you saying that regardless of the output level of my guitar, the same signal level, and hence the same patch volume (assuming nothing else in the patch changes) will occur.

IE. Through the FOH, my 175 will sound the same volume as my hot PRS, assuming I pad the PRS to be the same level on the meters when thumping a big chord, as I get with the 175 doing the same thing?

To be more specific. My 175 lights up the yellow but never touches red on the input meters when thumping a big G barre chord.
So If I pad down the PRS to be the same (just lighting yellow, no red), will my 175 and my PRS sound the same volume through the PA (accounting for the tonal differences of course)?

I guess you might be thinking 'try it for yourself' but unfortunately I am in the UK and our rig is stored away in the US until we return for our winter season there. So I am working with FRFR monitors to set this all up. Hence my caution.

Thanks again
Mark
 
UKMark said:
So if I understand you right, I am going to need to adjust levels that need to go UP by setting amp block levels in each preset. Effectively tying a preset to a guitar based on the guitar's output level?

That is a non-starter. I simply cant be faffing around adjusting levels live in a show if I want/need to switch guitars and the guitar output levels are different, as they often will be.

Even worse, we move from a section of the show with some country songs, using the higher output Tele, to a section where I am playing Jazz/Swing on my 175 with softer pickups. Rather than making one single global change on the Fractal at the start of the Jazz section to bump up the input level, I need to adjust all my patches that I will use, many of which were used by the Tele (clean, with chorus, with reverb, with tremolo etc etc) to have more input level for the 175.

Either this is a huge oversight or I am missing something fundamental here

Hmmm.....
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This effectively is a long time wish for me also, when switching guitars it is a PITA to have to adapt each preset and save it. . Let's hope that in a future Firmware it will be integrated. There is this volume for A/D conversion but as far as I experienced it is less accurate as you adapt in steps of 6dB.
 
UKMark said:
Hi @Moke, thanks for getting involved and helping, much appreciated.


So..

Are you saying that regardless of the output level of my guitar, the same signal level, and hence the same patch volume (assuming nothing else in the patch changes) will occur.
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No. He’s saying that, no matter how you set Input Pad or Input 1 / Instrument, those controls will not affect the volume or how hard you’re hitting the amp model or any other blocks in your preset.
 
I’m always baffled by people who are gigging and making money with their music complaining what the FM3 is missing. When I was active in music professionally I looked at things like gear as tools and I always paid the price for the tool that did the most to meet the needs. IOW, I went for the FM3 because I no longer need or will figure out a work around. If I was gigging a lot I’m almost certain I would have the FXIII. If the FM9 was available when I purchased the FM3 I would have maybe found it to be sufficient.

I have a good many guitars with varying degree of pickups and output. Admittedly they are all of a modern type so I haven’t had any issues with input levels being too low. However, this is more an outlier situation with what must be very low output pickups. Bottomline, there are plenty of areas to adjust gain pre Amp Block (or in amp block) and if the situation is so extreme from this one guitar to the others then, yes making presets to accommodate that guitar is not unreasonable.
 
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