FM3 w Different Guitars (pickup levels)

[UKMark]

Hi
I have just bought my FM3 and Axe FX II for use with our band. I keep the FM3 with me and the FX stays in the giggling rack.

The plan is (was) to use the FM3 whilst not playing (practice, rehearsal, down-time etc) to build my patches, then shoot them into the FX in the rack when we are ready to play out (I have simple needs so the FM3 should cope with anything I need )

First 'issue' (maybe) I have found is balancing the input levels of different guitars on the FM3. I have a Gibson 175 jazz box which has pretty low output pickups. They barely light the yellow when hitting the crap out of a G chord! Definitely nowhere near 'tickling the red'.
Then I have a PRS Pauls Guitar which is much hotter and with the same setting hits the red hard.

I realise I can pad the input down to account for the PRS.
But how to deal with the 175 and its low level PUPs?
There is no 'input level boost' as far as I can see.

And I definitely dont want to have to adjust patches if I switch guitars.

Does this mean I have to have duplicate patches with different input levels? Hope not, thats a real PITA. Having ditched my Kemper, which DID have a global input block with level settings, I am wondering if I did the right thing.....

Any help much appreciated
Thanks
Mark

 

[TwinbornAxis]

I just use the input pad on my FM3 located under setup > I/O I believe. I run my Strat at -0db and PRS Tremonti at -12db and that works for me hope it helps.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I just use the input pad on my FM3 located under setup > I/O I believe. I run my Strat at -0db and PRS Tremonti at -12db and that works for me hope it helps.

TIP: That setting can be added to the Global Performance page in Edit so it’s easily available from the front panel. From the front panel, at the Home Screen, press PAGE >> twice.

 

[AlexGuitar]

Just go to the 'Input 1/Instrument' parameter and lower it until you are "tickling the red" with your HIGHEST OUTPUT GUITAR. Don't be afraid to use extreme settings - my PRS requires about 10-15%. Your other guitar(s) will still work just fine.

The parameter does not change the gain of the input. Instead, it changes the level before the A/D converter, which is then compensated for after. In fact, take a guitar and keep playing while you turn the knob - the sound will not change. The only reason the parameter is important is to prevent clipping the converter (if you have high output pickups and/or play hard) and to optimize the signal to noise ratio.

 

[TwinbornAxis]

TIP: That setting can be added to the Global Performance page in Edit so it’s easily available from the front panel.

I will def use that tip. Thanks so much Greg your wealth of knowledge and willingness to share is a blessing to the community.

 

[AlexGuitar]

Maybe this question misunderstands how the function works, but:

Wouldn't the input pad cause the guitar to not hit the front of the amp as hard as it would irl, meaning that preamp distortion would be reduced, dynamics would be changed, etc?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Maybe this question misunderstands how the function works, but:

Wouldn't the input pad cause the guitar to not hit the front of the amp as hard as it would irl, meaning that preamp distortion would be reduced, dynamics would be changed, etc?

P. 94 in the manual…


What I understand it means is, at that stage of the circuit, it controls how sensitive the ADC is to the incoming signal prior to being converted into its digital form. The “volume” value, i.e. the dynamics, are retained, but the signal is cleaner because it’s not clipped.

 

[UKMark]

Hi

Yes I realise I can pad down the hot guitar. I am more concerned about bumping up the low level 175 jazz box. Is it necessary? Or I am worrying about nothing? My logic was that even low level inputs need to be brought up to a standard level so that the patches work/sound as expected.
Thanks
Mark

 

[AlexGuitar]

P. 94 in the manual…
View attachment 120877

What I understand it means is, at that stage of the circuit, it controls how sensitive the ADC is to the incoming signal prior to being converted into its digital form. The “volume” value, i.e. the dynamics, are retained, but the signal is cleaner because it’s not clipped.

I thought this is what they "Input 1 / Instrument" parameter did? Or do they both do the same thing, but this is a broad range adjustment and that is for fine-tuning?

@Moke - You gave some great advice on a similar thread earlier - I'd love for you to chime in.

 

[AlexGuitar]

Hi

Yes I realise I can pad down the hot guitar. I am more concerned about bumping up the low level 175 jazz box. Is it necessary? Or I am worrying about nothing? My logic was that even low level inputs need to be brought up to a standard level so that the patches work/sound as expected.
Thanks
Mark

I think you will be ok. As long as you aren't clipping, there is supposed to be a wide range of inputs. For example, if you turn your volume knob down on the hot guitar, you are giving a much lower signal, but it still functions as expected.

 

[AlexGuitar]

So - I was just looking at the manuals: I'm on an fm9, and it does not appear to have the "input pad" feature. It uses the input 1/instrument control instead...

This seems odd, but as far as I can tell, is accurate. To amend my earlier advice - do the same thing, but with the input pad control.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Hi

Yes I realise I can pad down the hot guitar. I am more concerned about bumping up the low level 175 jazz box. Is it necessary? Or I am worrying about nothing? My logic was that even low level inputs need to be brought up to a standard level so that the patches work/sound as expected.
Thanks
Mark

The FM3 doesn’t have a global Input 1 Gain that the FX3 and FM9 have…



Adding the Amp block’s Gain or Input Boost to the Global Performance page should help deal with how hard a guitar is hitting the amp…


and

 

[Greg Ferguson]

This seems odd, but as far as I can tell, is accurate.

Some features from the FX3 were not transferred to the FM3 because they weren’t felt to be used as much.

The way I see it working out in practice is that on the bigger units we can use the global setting to adjust all the presets at once and it’s remembered automatically, and we can add it to the Global Performance controls for convenience. On the FM3 we can accomplish the same sort of thing using the Global Performance controls and the Amp block’s settings but we have to store the preset for it to be remembered if we need to switch to a different preset.

The FM3, FM9 and FX3 are made from the same cake mix, but the bigger models got more icing.

 

[UKMark]

Hey @Greg Ferguson yeah that was what I am seeing when I read the manuals. Seems a bit of a weird thing to leave out of the FM3, particularly as the USB inputs still have a level control!
I am seeing in the manual that the AD convertor compensates for signal levels so long as the inputs are not clipped (IE use the pad). SO maybe I am worrying about nothing. But I dont want to setup dozens of patches for our gigs (we are a cover band so I use a LOT of different sounds & guitars) and then find I have to be messing around setting levels on every patch if I change guitar. Or have to use different versions of a patch for guitars with different outputs.
Attached is a screenshot of the FM3 editor showing it does not have input level control (IE Boost). Only pad down.

Still not sure if this is going to work for me....
Thanks
Mark

 

[UKMark]

On the FM3 we can accomplish the same sort of thing using the Global Performance controls and the Amp block’s settings but we have to store the preset for it to be remembered if we need to switch to a different preset.

So if I understand you right, I am going to need to adjust levels that need to go UP by setting amp block levels in each preset. Effectively tying a preset to a guitar based on the guitar's output level?

That is a non-starter. I simply cant be faffing around adjusting levels live in a show if I want/need to switch guitars and the guitar output levels are different, as they often will be.

Even worse, we move from a section of the show with some country songs, using the higher output Tele, to a section where I am playing Jazz/Swing on my 175 with softer pickups. Rather than making one single global change on the Fractal at the start of the Jazz section to bump up the input level, I need to adjust all my patches that I will use, many of which were used by the Tele (clean, with chorus, with reverb, with tremolo etc etc) to have more input level for the 175.

Either this is a huge oversight or I am missing something fundamental here

Hmmm.....

 

[Greg Ferguson]

maybe I am worrying about nothing.

I look at it as they had to reduce costs to create the smaller unit, but provided a work-around for the functionality that requires us to occasionally push a button to permanently remember the change.

Having multiple presets and multiple guitars presents a very similar problem with an analog amp and pedals except you might have to adjust multiple physical things depending on the equipment. The larger modelers can help ease the burden but the convenience has a price. I don’t think Fractal was being greedy, they were just trying to offer the most bang for the buck and some things had to be removed.

 

[UKMark]

Having multiple presets and multiple guitars presents a very similar problem with an analog amp and pedals except you might have to adjust multiple physical things depending on the equipment.

Yeah but I am not using physical gear I chose not to...

I have used many other modellers on the market; Kemper, Helix, Mooer, Boss, even a lowly Line 6 Pod Go! And ALL have an input level control for this exact purpose.

it's omission from the FM3 is strange. Not saying they are being greedy but it does seem to be a fairly fundamental thing to leave out. And there are more than enough rotary controls on the surface to give access to a parameter to change the level.

Unless I have a lightbulb moment I will be sending the FM3 back. Shame because it feels like a great unit otherwise....

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Even worse, we move from a section of the show with some country songs, using the higher output Tele, to a section where I am playing Jazz/Swing on my 175 with softer pickups. Rather than making one single global change on the Fractal at the start of the Jazz section to bump up the input level, I need to adjust all my patches that I will use, many of which were used by the Tele (clean, with chorus, with reverb, with tremolo etc etc) to have more input level for the 175.

1. Add a boost pedal in front of the modeler for the 175.
2. Modify the particular presets you use the 175 with, with a switchable boost block right after the Input block.
3. Add a modifier to the Amp block’s input boost and add a CS.

There are ways to fix the problem.

there are more than enough rotary controls on the surface to give access to a parameter to change the level.

It takes more than a knob.

 

[kptkarl]

Pad for highest gain guitar. Adjust the Input block output level. Utilize the channels+scenes.

Blocks Guide page 4.
"Output Level – Controls level at the output of the noise gate. This can be used to boost the overall preset input level which is useful, for example, when you really want to “smack” a Compressor or a Drive."

 

[skolacki]

Use a filter as a boost for your jazzbox. Filters don’t use much cpu. But why not use a preset made for that guitar? Are you using all 4 amp channels in your preset? One could be dedicated to your low output guitar and can be switched in with scenes or a toggle. The filter would be the easiest way.