FM3 into tube amp or solid state power amp?

[eddyrox]

For my usage, I use a SS power amp and cab(s), as then I have total control over the SPL, and I'm not dependent on the real tube amp's "sweet spot" SPL, rather I get the "sweet spot" from the modeling.


YMMV?

nice way of putting that.

 

[Fractur3d]

I just got a new FM3, but I haven't gotten to dive into it yet. I plan to still push air on stage with a real amp and 4x12 cabinet. I want to hear from experienced users about whether the Fractal gear sounds better when amplified by routing to the FX return of a tube amp VS into a clean solid state power amp. Which sounds better? Does anyone notice a difference that's worth mentioning?

If routing to the FX return of a tube amp, is it wise to send the signal without the Fractal amp block's "supply sag"? (I know not to use a cabinet block on the signal that's going to the real amp+cab).

Thanks for your help!

I've run the gamut on amps to power fractal.
Fayette PS2A colors the tone. Defeats the purpose of modeling the power stage.
Seymour Duncans P70 and P170 are great class D amps. Punchy, sterile, harsh sounding if not powering a modeler.
Crown xli800 was similar to the Seymours.
Orange Pedal baby 100 is what I'm settling on. Class A/B

I have also run a half dozen or so tube amps in 4cm with a FM9

Mission Engineering Gemini 2P frfr cab
I found the powered frfr cab Friedman asc 12 didnt supply enough power. Even though it listed as 500w the Orange Pedal baby 100 is way louder than any powered speaker I've heard.

So, I've tested a few configurations but definitely not all, or even most.
My two cents.

 

[hipeboy]

I'm currently using a Seymour Duncan PS170 with a pair of 1x12 cabs but I'm planning to buy a Fryette PS-2A or PS100 and keep the SD as a backup unit (very portable, less than 1kg).
For those who already had both units, does it worth the upgrade for the Power Station? Also, between PS-2A (50W) and PS100 (100W) which one do you guys prefer?

Thanks in advance.

 

[tobafett]

I'm currently using a Seymour Duncan PS170 with a pair of 1x12 cabs but I'm planning to buy a Fryette PS-2A or PS100 and keep the SD as a backup unit (very portable, less than 1kg).
For those who already had both units, does it worth the upgrade for the Power Station? Also, between PS-2A (50W) and PS100 (100W) which one do you guys prefer?

Thanks in advance.

Hi Hipeboy!

I have a SD PS 170, and had a PS-2A. Here are my .02:

1. Depending on your situation the PS-2A might not be loud enough. I found it to struggle in a situation playing with another guitarist using a tube amp.

2. Unless you want all the additional features - which are very cool, the PS-2A may not be worth the extra $$$.

I did some comparison audio and video captures, and honestly, the difference between the PS-170 and the PS-2A were small enough in a mix that I could not justify the additional expense of the 2A. (I have other methods for reactive load boxes already, and do not need the FX loop functionality.)

For me, the extra weight, and cost, did not pencil out.

Again, for me, the LX-II is a better option - it does cost more than the PS-2A, but fits in one RU, is stereo or mono (100 watts) and it just does something for me - I can't really explain it. I did the same comparison mixes and the LX-II sounds a little better in the mix than the PS-170, but when isolated, there is no comparison at all.

Sometimes, I still gig with the PS-170 - as you mentioned its compact, and light, and is powerful enough to hang in a band context. I did like the PS-2A, but it just did not work for my needs. I like the LX-II so much that I bought two.

Best of luck on your search!

 

[Fractur3d]

PS-2A is 6L6 PowerStage
Are you going to set global to bypass power amp modeling?
I ran a PS-2A. But didn’t like always having 6l6 coloration or trying to blend the Marshall tones with 2 sets of power tubes.
I’ve found the orange pedal baby delivers the neutral color I like to work with.
To each their own.
Modeling is doing what works best for you.
Fractal Rocks!

 

[hipeboy]

Thank you guys for your inputs.

@tobafett the possible lack of volume of the 50W version to keep up with another guitarist using a tube head is one of my concerns. Although my two 1x12 cabs use 100dB sensivitity speakers I'm not 100% sure if I'll have the volume on tap I need.

@Fractur3d I thought the poweramp in the PowerStation's was neutral and we could keep the Power Amp modeling ON in the FM3.

 

[Fractur3d]

Thank you guys for your inputs.

@tobafett the possible lack of volume of the 50W version to keep up with another guitarist using a tube head is one of my concerns. Although my two 1x12 cabs use 100dB sensivitity speakers I'm not 100% sure if I'll have the volume on tap I need.

@Fractur3d I thought the poweramp in the PowerStation's was neutral and we could keep the Power Amp modeling ON in the FM3.

I don’t know about being neutral, but the ps-2A that I had used tubes.
I did try it with power amp modeling “on” but it didn’t produce the tones I was looking for.
Orange pedal baby claims A/B power staging or something like that.
The Seymour ps sounded harsh to me but the pedal baby seems more neutral. I don’t twelve o’clock the bass and treble. So I’m adjusting the “neutral “ to a degree I guess.

 

[tobafett]

@Fractur3d I thought the poweramp in the PowerStation's was neutral and we could keep the Power Amp modeling ON in the FM3.

The PS-2A AFAIK is not neutral. There are some settings on it, that in a video somewhere Steve remarks that it makes it more suited for use with a modeler, but your milage may vary.

Not to sound like a salesman, but the LX-II is designed to be a neutral power amp. I use it with my FM9 and AFIII with the power amp modeling on and it sounds great IMO.

 

[hipeboy]

Thank you guys.
Unfortunately, the form factor + the price of the LX-II (1700€ here in Europe) is a deal breaker for me.

 

[tobafett]

The PS-2A AFAIK is not neutral. There are some settings on it, that in a video somewhere Steve remarks that it makes it more suited for use with a modeler, but your milage may vary.

Here is the link about the "flat" settings on the PS-2A(100)

 

[hipeboy]

Thanks for the video. Very informative.
Maybe I will stick with the SD PS170... I mean, its reasonably cheap, small, lightweight and powerful enough to play live with a rock band. With the latest improvements Fractal did in the poweramp modeling it sounds very very good and natural to me. I believe I'm just missing a bit of that tube poweramp interaction with the guitar speakers that the SS poweramp cannot do.

 

[tobafett]

Thanks for the video. Very informative.
Maybe I will stick with the SD PS170... I mean, its reasonably cheap, small, lightweight and powerful enough to play live with a rock band. With the latest improvements Fractal did in the poweramp modeling it sounds very very good and natural to me. I believe I'm just missing a bit of that tube poweramp interaction with the guitar speakers that the SS poweramp cannot do.

In my comparisons that I did, the PS-2A really wasn't that much different in the mix from the PS-170 - not enough to justify the $$$. As I mentioned before, it can do all sorts of other cool things, but if you are only using it as a power amp, its not really worth it, IMO.

For some gigs I don't use a amp or cab at all, and the Fractal sounds great through FOH and my IEMs. But for gigs where I do use a power amp, the interaction between the fractal and the LX-II is so super sweet!

Best of luck on your search!

 

[hipeboy]

Yeah. When I got the SD PS170 it was like 350€ here in Europe. Nowadays it costs a bit more.
The Fryette PS-2A retails for 1.159€ which is basically 3 time more expensive.

Also heard good things about the KSR PA50 but not sure if it will have the same caveats as the PS-2A:
https://ksramps.com/product/pa50-compact-power-amp/

Do you guys tweak the Impedance Curve in the Amp Block to match your guitar cabs speakers?
I have read that this can improve the interactive experience when using a SS PA + guitar cab.

 

[sprada]

Here is the link about the "flat" settings on the PS-2A(100)

Might be wrong but that is for attenuation only. Those buttons do nothing when you're using as a Power amp only.

 

[sprada]

Hi Hipeboy!

I have a SD PS 170, and had a PS-2A. Here are my .02:

1. Depending on your situation the PS-2A might not be loud enough. I found it to struggle in a situation playing with another guitarist using a tube amp.

2. Unless you want all the additional features - which are very cool, the PS-2A may not be worth the extra $$$.

I did some comparison audio and video captures, and honestly, the difference between the PS-170 and the PS-2A were small enough in a mix that I could not justify the additional expense of the 2A. (I have other methods for reactive load boxes already, and do not need the FX loop functionality.)

For me, the extra weight, and cost, did not pencil out.

Again, for me, the LX-II is a better option - it does cost more than the PS-2A, but fits in one RU, is stereo or mono (100 watts) and it just does something for me - I can't really explain it. I did the same comparison mixes and the LX-II sounds a little better in the mix than the PS-170, but when isolated, there is no comparison at all.

Sometimes, I still gig with the PS-170 - as you mentioned its compact, and light, and is powerful enough to hang in a band context. I did like the PS-2A, but it just did not work for my needs. I like the LX-II so much that I bought two.

Best of luck on your search!

I'm puzzled that you're saying that 50w is not enough.
With a loud band I can't get the volume past 9/10 o'clock
Are you connecting to the line in or the effects return?

You should really really connect to the effects return.

(Also spoke with Fryette about "Sweet Spot". According to them there's no Sweet Spot. It's pretty linear across the entire range)

 

[hipeboy]

Thank you @sprada for your insights.
As far as I understood, if you connect into the PS-2A FX loop return input you have plenty of volume on tap.
Also, as the tone controls only affect the reactive load (Amp In jack) they do nothing if we connect the FM3 into the PS-2A FX loop return jack.

 

[zenaxe]

Yeah. When I got the SD PS170 it was like 350€ here in Europe. Nowadays it costs a bit more.
The Fryette PS-2A retails for 1.159€ which is basically 3 time more expensive.

Also heard good things about the KSR PA50 but not sure if it will have the same caveats as the PS-2A:
https://ksramps.com/product/pa50-compact-power-amp/

Do you guys tweak the Impedance Curve in the Amp Block to match your guitar cabs speakers?
I have read that this can improve the interactive experience when using a SS PA + guitar cab.

The PA50 has a ‘HiFi’ switch/mode specifically for use with digital modelers. It’s an extremely cool power amp, IMHO.

The PS2 is extremely neutral by design and is a really nice power amp for digital stuff, too, IME.

 

[guitarobert]

Thanks for the video. Very informative.
Maybe I will stick with the SD PS170... I mean, it’s reasonably cheap, small, lightweight and powerful enough to play live with a rock band. With the latest improvements Fractal did in the poweramp modeling it sounds very very good and natural to me. I believe I'm just missing a bit of that tube poweramp interaction with the guitar speakers that the SS poweramp cannot do.

Another recommendation for the Orange Pedal Baby. I A/B’d it against the PS170 and found it to be noticeably better. The Orange is not flat with controls at noon though. Set the bass to 1:30 and treble to 10:30. Then it’s quite flat on an RTA measurement.

 

[Lolo-G]

Another recommendation for the Orange Pedal Baby. I A/B’d it against the PS170 and found it to be noticeably better. The Orange is not flat with controls at noon though. Set the bass to 1:30 and treble to 10:30. Then it’s quite flat on an RTA measurement.

8 ohms minimum load is a shame

 

[Budda]

Thanks for the video. Very informative.
Maybe I will stick with the SD PS170... I mean, its reasonably cheap, small, lightweight and powerful enough to play live with a rock band. With the latest improvements Fractal did in the poweramp modeling it sounds very very good and natural to me. I believe I'm just missing a bit of that tube poweramp interaction with the guitar speakers that the SS poweramp cannot do.

The power amp interaction is also in the advanced parameters of the amp block, start tinkering there.