FM3 Firmware Version 6.01

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nteloss said:
If i understand correct, previously ou said that the real amp into the ox is less realistic than a model in the fractal?
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The OX is not a realistic speaker load. That doesn't mean it sounds bad. But using that as a reference for "accuracy" is fundamentally flawed. It will result in MUCH greater low frequency response than a real speaker.

The way we ascertain the accuracy of our amp models is to put the amp in an isolation room. So we are using a REAL speaker load.

If you want to use a load box the LB-2 and Suhr Reactive Load are the only two products that I'm aware of that are accurate emulations of a real speaker. The Two Notes products, the OX and several others use a simple RC circuit. This is much less expensive because you don't have the large, heavy and costly inductor that an RLC load uses.
 
2112 said:
These?
http://masterplant.com/electronics/Z.pdf

In which case the Ox and Torpedo look absolutely nothing like a speaker impedance curve.
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Yup and yes, the OX and Torpedo are nothing like a real speaker.

The output of a tube amp is high impedance. If there is no negative feedback the output approaches a current source. The voltage at the output would then be V = I * Z and therefore the voltage follows the impedance curve.

An amp into an OX or Torpedo will have far more low end than into a real speaker. That's not to say it will sound bad, but you can't use it as a benchmark for accuracy.

I don't claim our modeling to be perfect, nothing is, but at this point it is highly accurate and I myself routinely fail a blind A/B test between the models and the reference amp into the reference speaker. More importantly, though, it simply sounds good and getting caught up in "it doesn't sound exactly the same as MY amp" is counterproductive. Make music, life is too short.
 
FractalAudio said:
Yup and yes, the OX and Torpedo are nothing like a real speaker.

The output of a tube amp is high impedance. If there is no negative feedback the output approaches a current source. The voltage at the output would then be V = I * Z and therefore the voltage follows the impedance curve.

An amp into an OX or Torpedo will have far more low end than into a real speaker. That's not to say it will sound bad, but you can't use it as a benchmark for accuracy.

I don't claim our modeling to be perfect, nothing is, but at this point it is highly accurate and I myself routinely fail a blind A/B test between the models and the reference amp into the reference speaker. More importantly, though, it simply sounds good and getting caught up in "it doesn't sound exactly the same as MY amp" is counterproductive. Make music, life is too short
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FractalAudio said:
it very strange that ox and torpedo using same technology, but ox sounding and feeling far more superior. I haven’t tryied the fractal lb-2 or the Suhr. I was wondering how you do your A//B tests.
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nteloss said:
it very strange that ox and torpedo using same technology, but ox sounding and feeling far more superior. I haven’t tryied the fractal lb-2 or the Suhr. I was wondering how you do your A//B tests.
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Please be careful when replying. You made it appear as if @FractalAudio said that.

“sounding and feeling” are subjective and change depending on the person because not everyone wants or likes the same thing. Accuracy is measurable.
 
FractalAudio said:
...More importantly, though, it simply sounds good and getting caught up in "it doesn't sound exactly the same as MY amp" is counterproductive. Make music, life is too short.
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Yup, not that accuracy isn't important, but at what point do people start obsessing for no reason?

I honestly have no idea how the models compare to the originals (I mean down to the levels being discussed). I've never even thought to conduct such testing. I can get all of the tones I'd ever need and then some and have "discovered" several amps that I would never have thought to try in a million years.

Thanks for an awesome product!
 
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nteloss said:
Of course it is my opinion but many people also agree also with me. The fact is that in all the amps and the preamps i have tested there were always some similar differences: When you play softer with our pick or roll of the volume on the guitar the axe fx sound always is thinner and has less body and less punch to it. I am note sure what is the case here, i suppose thet the amp has more complex harmonic content? i am not sure.. If you have any suggestions to improve this aspect i would be happy to hear them.
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In this response you’re spiraling into the old and tired discussion of which is better or more realistic, “a real tube amp and speaker cab, or a modeler”? This is way outside the bounds of your original comment. If all you wanted to do was say “modelers suck” coming to the Fractal company web forum seems like an exercise in futility. I’m sure and as you say there are other places you can go and have a circle jerk about the subject with other like minded people.
 
FractalAudio said:
Yup and yes, the OX and Torpedo are nothing like a real speaker.

The output of a tube amp is high impedance. If there is no negative feedback the output approaches a current source. The voltage at the output would then be V = I * Z and therefore the voltage follows the impedance curve.

An amp into an OX or Torpedo will have far more low end than into a real speaker. That's not to say it will sound bad, but you can't use it as a benchmark for accuracy.

I don't claim our modeling to be perfect, nothing is, but at this point it is highly accurate and I myself routinely fail a blind A/B test between the models and the reference amp into the reference speaker. More importantly, though, it simply sounds good and getting caught up in "it doesn't sound exactly the same as MY amp" is counterproductive. Make music, life is too short.
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Sheesh! I think we’re all impressed with how much you have engaged with this troll. Perhaps Fractal products just aren’t for them… Personally, I have tried them all and was never sold on modelers until my FM3. Now I have an FM9 Turbo as well. The feel and responsiveness that are found with a real tube amp are all there in spades in your products. These perceived missing components by this individual are not going to be distinguishable in a mix.

Your products continue to amaze and most of us recognize you will continue to improve the products in all aspects over time. Even the rate of updates are second to none across the entire modeling industry.

Feel free to disengage from this conversation whenever you’d like. You have nothing to prove here. 😁
 
millman said:
Sheesh! I think we’re all impressed with how much you have engaged with this troll. Perhaps Fractal products just aren’t for them… Personally, I have tried them all and was never sold on modelers until my FM3. Now I have an FM9 Turbo as well. The feel and responsiveness that are found with a real tube amp are all there in spades in your products. These perceived missing components by this individual are not going to be distinguishable in a mix.

Your products continue to amaze and most of us recognize you will continue to improve the products in all aspects over time. Even the rate of updates are second to none across the entire modeling industry.

Feel free to disengage from this conversation whenever you’d like. You have nothing to prove here. 😁
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Of course, it is logical that if someone thinks that the device can be improved in some aspects , it is a troll.. ok
 
nteloss said:
Of course, it is logical that if someone thinks that the device can be improved in some aspects , it is a troll.. ok
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I don't think you're a troll. I had my doubts at first, but now I just think you're a little obsessed. I think you also opened the conversation poorly by suggesting that FAS knows exactly what you're talking about, as if there is something to cover up.

I would suggest creating your own thread where you can discuss this though because this is really the FW thread and any comments on it will get overshadowed by all of this. I think someone posted a possible bug above which many could've overlooked.
 
fcs101 said:
I would suggest creating your own thread where you can discuss this though because this is really the FW thread and any comments on it will get overshadowed by all of this. I think someone posted a possible bug above which many could've overlooked.
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This. I came here looking for details about 6.01 and had to (painfully) read through a debate that really has nothing to do with a FW update. The discussion is fine, it just doesn't belong in this thread. Anyway, thanks @FractalAudio for yet another amazing update.
 
nteloss said:
Of course, it is logical that if someone thinks that the device can be improved in some aspects , it is a troll.. ok
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Perhaps but the entire first argument was disingenuous. You said improve modeling as opposed to more amp models. The 6.0 firmware improved the modeling AND added amp models. They are not mutually exclusive.

Secondly, the feel and responsiveness are there. It isn’t just bass response. Btw, Firmware 5 had too much bass. It was tightened up and way more realistic in v6.

Reasons for perceived differences have been proposed yet you continue to argue without providing any hard evidence other than, “others say so too,” which is a worthless argument…

Pay attention, they are always working to improve. Every iteration gets a little better. Seems to me you are looking for an amp in the room experience. Which Cooper Carter had a great video on how to achieve something close.
 
nteloss said:
Well , if you ever try them side by side you will understand me. It is far beyond subjective.
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Except that you said
but ox sounding and feeling far more superior
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That is purely subjective. It's your opinion, possibly shared with a small group of your friends, however, it remains subjective.

SHOW us the results of a demonstrated repeatable test. Several times Cliff has suggested you read his tech notes that will help you understand what you'll need to know to do that.

Fractal/Cliff is entirely happy to improve the modeling if you can demonstrate how you got there and where the model varies from the sample unit in their vault. There are many examples over the years where they've done that but continuing the argument based on subjective statements will prove nothing and continue to drag the thread off course.
 
nteloss said:
Of course, it is logical that if someone thinks that the device can be improved in some aspects , it is a troll.. ok
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It's honestly not that. It's that you've started a discussion with something like "y'all have no idea", and it is just not true on so many levels. If you'd start with something like "I get results I don't like, any idea why?", the overall response would be overwhelmingly helpful, friendly and constructive.

Well, maybe except for Cliff, he is way beyond helpful and polite already.
 
fcs101 said:
Yup, not that accuracy isn't important, but at what point do people start obsessing for no reason?

I honestly have no idea how the models compare to the originals. I've never even thought to conduct such testing. I can get all of the tones I'd ever need and then some and have "discovered" several amps that I would never have thought to try in a million years.

Thanks for an awesome product!
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Plus just last night I was messing with the new jumped Bassman model and also getting into the deep diving preamp, poweramp parameters and also different cab and speaker curves. I had that thing achieving (and at times with a Chiron) so many different tones and feel it was crazy. Some were great others I pushed too far and were not so much to my liking. Although I was getting a great Neil Young spitting mad tone at one point. It was a blast. As you said, I have never actually played this amp in real life and really don’t care, the model was excellent and just great fun.
 
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