Fletcher Munson nightmare :(

Why not just 2 presets? One for live gigging, one for reasonable practice volume?

I found the only parameters I like to change when going from low practice volume to good gig volume are the high and low cuts in the cab block. Sounds good and is a super simple fix.
 
Creating presets at gig volume is impossible when you’re playing larger outdoor summer concerts shows. I create my tones with an eye on the RTA and keep highs/lows in check. After that, it’s up to the FOH engineer for me
 
I always just play at a pretty consistent volume. Loud. Not skull splitting, but enough to "feel" the riffs. If I ever go lower, up the treble and presence.
 
Piing said:
Exactly. That is the reason why an automatic Fletcher Munson correction is not feasible. It depends on many unpredictable factors, like the size and acoustic characteristics of the venue.

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Not impossible but it needs the system to have full control over the whole chain and the environment.
Audissey did it right on their room correction software that you can find on Denon and Marantz AVRs.
Besides correcting the frequency response of speakers/room, it also measures the dB spl of the system for a certain power output and then applies a dynamic correction for equal loudness curves (aka fletcher munson) based on your volume setting on the AVR.
This works wonderfully for sources that respect reference LUFS levels for broadcast and streaming, for those that don't you can clearly hear that bass and treble are exagerated (if source is too quiet) or lacking (if source is too loud).

But a system like this is impossible to replicate in something like an axe fx, cuz it can't control all the other variables placed after its outputs.
 
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Daviebutt said:
This may be a daft question but.... why hasnt somebody invented a device that automatically EQs your sound so that it sounds exactly the same as the volume increases (RE: Fletcher Munson Curve)? I can't believe that this is an unsolvable technological problem? How come nobody (Fractal for example) has come up with an option where their device compensates for EQ changes, as volume goes up, thereby making preset creation a far easier and more predictable experience?
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Every room has an impact on the tone, as well. Dialing in at gig volumes is a good start. You will need to tweak a bit for every venue, unless you only play in the same room.
 
Andy Eagle said:
This is also a big part of why amp in the room is so difficult for digital.
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"Amp-in-the-room" is easy for digital — for good digital, anyway. Just step away from the FRFR, and hook a power amp that still has plenty of headroom at high volume. Then crank it loud enough to make a difference, just as you would with a "real" amp in the room.
 
Rex said:
"Amp-in-the-room" is easy for digital — for good digital, anyway. Just step away from the FRFR, and hook a power amp that still has plenty of headroom at high volume. Then crank it loud enough to make a difference, just as you would with a "real" amp in the room.
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Not the same but closer with a guitar cab and tube power stage.
 
Sound is too contextual to avoid the context at any time. I think it needs to be different whether it's set for a particular volume or to fit a mix.

A mixing and mastering engineer will have to make sure the audio is good and balanced for any volume, but a live engineer only needs to worry about gig volumes. All I mean is, just set up to what you're actually doing, and don't be afraid to have many different versions of each tone, to fit whatever you're doing; my two cents.
 
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Andy Eagle said:
Not the same but closer with a guitar cab and tube power stage.
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Tube amps are great in that they usually have enough reserve power to let transients pop (guitarists usually say that such an amp is "fast"). Most FRFRs and their class D power amps can't muster that. A solid-state class A or B amp that's operating below its rated power can usually pull it off. Add in the unique resonances and radiation patterns of a traditional guitar cab, and I have a hard time hearing the difference.
 
simeon said:
yeah, gain is the other issue. the added volume always makes it feel like there's more. i like the idea of para eq with high and low shelves mapped to performance controls, maybe amp gain could be another. if you get time at soundcheck it should be easy to get it spot on. i've been doing this so long now, i can dial them in at home and have them sound right at gigs about 80% of the time. i used to have two footswitches mapped to preset level + and - 1db, but i found i didn't need them any more after i figured out how to level match at home. having good monitoring (with a sub) and a some experience is really the key. if you can audition them at gig level, even better, buy i know that's not possible for many people.
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I have amp gain and bmt mapped too, but that’s less straightforward due to the way gain changes the amp characteristics. I used to have an exp pedal mapped to an overdrive block before the amp, with range from 0.5 - 5, but that cheap exp pedal eventually broke! Now I have four OD channels with increasingly bitey options that I can cycle through with one FC switch, and hold to disable. I find I’m always on the first option - I’m starting to think that we just don’t need that much gain! 🤫
 
Try recording with monitors off, listen to the recording, then change some parameters and do it again until it sounds good. That way you 100% exclude the room. The only downside of doing this is that you probably have to do 1000 recordings before you have something that you like, because you have to record everytime you change a parameter and maybe give long descriptive names for the files, documenting what you have changed. That's no fun, but it "works" for me :D
 
Musikron said:
There's like what, 1000 preset slots in these things? Just duplicate your preset, tweak eq for the quiet version, save.
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I have a version I make at home, then spend 10 mins tweaking at a practice space and resave it with LIVE in front of it. Different variations of the same preset is the way to go.
 
Man, some people just want the machine to do everything for them. Wait for the AxeFx AI. The you can just tell it what you want and it'll be done for you. Perhaps with an optional brain chip so you just think, more distortion, less bass, turn up the delay.
 
FractalAudio said:
But that is precisely the problem. Tube amps sound anemic at low volumes because of F-M.

People dial in modelers at low volumes and (usually unwittingly) compensate for F-M. Then when they turn up at a gig the lows are boomy and the highs are piercing.

Tube amps are voiced for gig volumes. Therefore it is logical to dial in your presets at gig volume.
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chrisxs2003 said:
Creating presets at gig volume is impossible when you’re playing larger outdoor summer concerts shows. I create my tones with an eye on the RTA and keep highs/lows in check. After that, it’s up to the FOH engineer for me
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Without a doubt, this is the job of the sound engineer.

My patches sound flat at low volume, the clear sounds lack dynamics, on the other hand at the volume of the group it sounds good. and for concerts at even higher volume the sound engineer who adjusts the system does his job.
When the group plays independently with its own sound system we play at about the same volume as the rehearsal so there are no bad surprises.
 
Lolo-G said:
Without a doubt, this is the job of the sound engineer.

My patches sound flat at low volume, the clear sounds lack dynamics, on the other hand at the volume of the group it sounds good. and for concerts at even higher volume the sound engineer who adjusts the system does his job.
When the group plays independently with its own sound system we play at about the same volume as the rehearsal so there are no bad surprises.
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IMHO this is the way to go as long as you got a sound engineer and go through a PA. Since a couple of years we got a decent engineer that mixes all our gigs and I talk to him a lot. Whenever I have some new presets, we do a quick level check at stage volume during the sound check. Then he gets a copy of our set list so he can note anything unusual he noticed during the show. I'll review and adjust my presets afterwards --> done. I just apply gentle cuts (if at all) and let our tech adjust the stuff based on the venue.

A normal gig is usually 4-5 hours and on some events most people arrive later at the party. We often deal with half empty venues and depending on whether it is indoor or outdoors, the sound changes a lot once more people arrive and fill the empty spaces. And if the sound guy is a stranger, I usually meet with him, pay him a beer and have a 5 minutes chat so he knows what to expect from my end guitar wise.

Had some arguments with the Helix community (I used the Helix before switching to FAS) because somehow most people think HPFs and LPFs are mandatory for a modeler to sound "right". They should try FAS products, too, because they sound always right. If I use cuts, then to make a satisfying tone sit better in a mix, not to make a "bad tone" sound "right".
 
Rex said:
Tube amps are great in that they usually have enough reserve power to let transients pop (guitarists usually say that such an amp is "fast"). Most FRFRs and their class D power amps can't muster that. A solid-state class A or B amp that's operating below its rated power can usually pull it off. Add in the unique resonances and radiation patterns of a traditional guitar cab, and I have a hard time hearing the difference.
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I don't use class D . I use a Matrix GT1000FX with FRFR and it still can't do it.
 
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