Flattening the headrush curve

because some people, though not poor by any means, don't have unlimited financial resources and have to make choices what to buy (first)
It is not good use of money to spend big on the best modeller and then waste it entirely by playing it through the equiverlant of a PV bandit .
 
@Andy Eagle

The way I look at it is if your equipment is sounding better then it's a step up.

I own a tube ac10. Nice 10 watt amp. I find my HR108 beats it. The 108 sounds better hooked up to my AX8 than my AC10.

I like how I can crank the volume on my HR108 to nice high levels without shattering glass windows like with my AC10.

I like the fact that I can change virtual tubes anytime using my AX8 with my HR108 than changing tubes in real life on my tube AC10. haha.

Perhaps one day I'll go for a better FRFR or buy IEM and just run FOH but for now I find the sound of my HR108 more than adequate for my needs.

Just curious what is your definition of a great frfr unit than sounds better than a PV bandit and how much $$ are we talking?
 
@Andy Eagle

The way I look at it is if your equipment is sounding better then it's a step up.

I own a tube ac10. Nice 10 watt amp. I find my HR108 beats it. The 108 sounds better hooked up to my AX8 than my AC10.

I like how I can crank the volume on my HR108 to nice high levels without shattering glass windows like with my AC10.

I like the fact that I can change virtual tubes anytime using my AX8 with my HR108 than changing tubes in real life on my tube AC10. haha.

Perhaps one day I'll go for a better FRFR or buy IEM and just run FOH but for now I find the sound of my HR108 more than adequate for my needs.

Just curious what is your definition of a great frfr unit than sounds better than a PV bandit and how much $$ are we talking?
around £1k for one . A good option is the Celestion F12X200 and a good power amp but you need the right cab.
 
@Andy Eagle

The way I look at it is if your equipment is sounding better then it's a step up.

I own a tube ac10. Nice 10 watt amp. I find my HR108 beats it. The 108 sounds better hooked up to my AX8 than my AC10.

I like how I can crank the volume on my HR108 to nice high levels without shattering glass windows like with my AC10.

I like the fact that I can change virtual tubes anytime using my AX8 with my HR108 than changing tubes in real life on my tube AC10. haha.

Perhaps one day I'll go for a better FRFR or buy IEM and just run FOH but for now I find the sound of my HR108 more than adequate for my needs.

Just curious what is your definition of a great frfr unit than sounds better than a PV bandit and how much $$ are we talking?
If you like it, then everything is fine!
But personally I‘m with @Andy Eagle here. Buying the best Unit on the market and combining it with one of the worst cabs, does not make sense to me.
It’s like driving a Supercar with bicycle tires.
This is something that you have to calculate before buying.

My advice would be, save some money, grab you unit and try everything that music shops have to offer.

This is what I did and I ended up buying the Red Sound FRFR but there are a lot great sounding speakers out there.
As Andy suggested the Crlestion, or Xitone, or search the used market for some XLR etc. Depends on what you need.
For home use a good pair of studio monitors are unbeatable. Or some good headphones like the Ollo Audio S4X (under 400$).

But in the end, if you are happy with the Headrush, everything is fine, have fun and rock them hard!
 
I was gonna say

Because I can fit a 160$ Bstock 108, a FM9 board, a mic stand, a tele, and a Veilette doubleneck acoustic in the trunk of my Maserati ...and still have room for your Mom

But that would be tart, and there is a lot of that in my thread. It's not a good look.

Andy I get the impression that you don't actually own a 108. And certainly haven't tried this eq fix. So ... there's that
 
It is not good use of money to spend big on the best modeller and then waste it entirely by playing it through the equiverlant of a PV bandit .

I'll say it again,

For me Price, Weight, Size, Clear loudness, bonus now with the EQ curve! it's money very well spent!
I typically use it at home. I have used them live as personal monitors in stereo, several times and they were great!
Live I run my Fractal unit to FOH and do my personal mixing for my ears with an ME-1.
In no way is it a waste of money.

Are there better FRFR, yes. The cost then goes way up. YMMV
 
@WKSmith

Here is my GLOBAL out 1 and out 2 respectively on my AX8:

I use u2 custom presets that send all amp sims to out 1.

Both my monitors (via xlr L &R) and HR108 ( via 1/4 “) are connected to OUT 1 as I need the amp sims for custom u2 presets to run.

Also I need to send my presets to FOH OR PA if necessary.

Also most of the time I want to use my HR108 for performing as not all places have FOH connection.

What do I adjust here?

Thanks @WKSmith !

F8E80202-40E6-44F1-948A-A0339F8DEA96.jpegA39CBE44-36A9-4F31-801A-DFF0D6CB55C8.jpeg
 
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I'll say it again,

For me Price, Weight, Size, Clear loudness, bonus now with the EQ curve! it's money very well spent!
I typically use it at home. I have used them live as personal monitors in stereo, several times and they were great!
Live I run my Fractal unit to FOH and do my personal mixing for my ears with an ME-1.
In no way is it a waste of money.

Are there better FRFR, yes. The cost then goes way up. YMMV
I get it but if you A/B test them with something good you really would be surprised . The problem I have is my axe rig has to compete with my old school tube WDW rig which is going nowhere (Diezel VH4) that uses my Axe3 as wet only . In the WDW I have VH4 in to vintage Marshall cab with FX from the 3 in to my GT1000fx2U wet only in to Xitone passive wedges (F12X200 speakers). Also at my friend studio he has a tone of vintage tube amps that I regularly play through and some modern stuff (Friedman, Soldano, Bogner etc) it makes it hard for me to like any FRFR because even the best of the best is only OK.
 
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@scottp @WKSmith
@Habuman

The new Global EQ setting are working great! Thanks to all who contributed to helping me getting a more FRFR sound.

Overall the gain floor is the only fader I may modify. I returned my gain values to stock levels in my U2 custom preset patches as with the gain floor lowered on the EQ the presets work ideally at gain values originally higher than what I had lowered them to.

The sound is best on my HR108. My Mackie Monitors which go through the same output 1 sound kinda shrill and sterile now that they too are accepting the new EQ from OUT1 with altered EQ values. Remember, they don’t have a bass problem. I guess I’m stuck at this point with how to get them sounding good using only OUT 1. Out 1 is where all my Amp sims run with my U2 custom presets.

If I send XLR out from the 108 to FOH doesn't the volume of my 108 matter? Sending to FOH at volume 2 and volume 11 is different isn't it? Won't volume differences cause problems with the Venue sound engineer?
 
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First thing I would do is check to see if the XLR out of the HR 108 is a pass thru signal.
You can check the HR manual to see if you can get a quick answer, or try it at home.
 
First thing I would do is check to see if the XLR out of the HR 108 is a pass thru signal.
You can check the HR manual to see if you can get a quick answer, or try it at home.
@scottp
@WKSmith
@Habuman
@Toopy14

This is the sad truth about HR108's:

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/output-from-headrush-frfr-108-into-foh.2394644/


Yet at namm this guy says the HR108 has a "DI" xlr output:

Does that mean it's ready to go to FOH or you need a DI box before the PA?

Note: I believe DI here mean Direct Injection not Direct Input




This also begs the question if I don't connect out 1 on my AX8 to my Focurite 2i2 Audio box direct to record through my laptop, could I alternatively send the XLR DI out of the HR108(s) at any volume setting on the 108's to the input of my Scarlett Focusrite 2i2 and into my pc into my Ableton Live 10 software for recording? Or would my audio box and laptop blow up???? I understand the DI xlr out on the 108's is for the PA sound guy but just brainstorming some scenarios.
 
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I use OUT1 solely for personal monitoring (headphone or headrush) and OUT2 for FOH. In AF3 I've copied OUT1 to OUT2 (global settings I believe). That way I can change OUT1 level independently from OUT2 level which stays fixed at the level desired by the FOH engineer.
As I don't use the Headrushes very often I set the GEQ of OUT1 to the above Headrush settings when I use them and back to zero when I use the headphones.
 
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To be even more flexibel I'm researching what I have to change in my presets to pick up the pre cab block signal and send it to a stereo poweramp+ my old real stereo cab via OUT3 or OUT4.
Most time based blocks are located behind the cab block. So I will have to find out what effect has moving the cab block to the end of the signal chain and if this can be 'counter-effected' or not; believe Michael Fanton has recently done a video about this (maybe should watch this video first :)).
 
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If you like it, then everything is fine!
But personally I‘m with @Andy Eagle here. Buying the best Unit on the market and combining it with one of the worst cabs, does not make sense to me.
It’s like driving a Supercar with bicycle tires.
This is something that you have to calculate before buying.

My advice would be, save some money, grab you unit and try everything that music shops have to offer.
It’s like the old adage, “a chain is no stronger than its weakest link.” As long as people go into the purchase with their eyes wide open then it’s fine, they know what they’re getting.

“Caveat emptor” applies to those who don’t know anything about FRFRs, or sound reinforcement or acoustics, who have no idea what it is they’re buying (or possibly no idea what they’re doing). There’s a huge amount of snake oil and marketing-speak full of glittering language and people shilling about this and that in the music industry, and musicians, especially young or new musicians, believe the malarkey that the next purchase will make them be better than they were, that it’s the key to “that sound”, or a magic bullet. That seems to be human nature.

The virus drove people to re-examine their dreams and goals because they were forced indoors and into their basements and bedrooms. Modelers were a great solution for the need to be able to make the sounds that they wanted without the fear of waking the entire neighborhood at 3 AM. The technology is new in comparison with regular ol’ amps so people are still scrambling to try to figure out how it works. The touring and recording pros have already figured it out but their knowledge is too esoteric for the neophytes who just want to make noise, and the costs of the gear shock them. They want the best but shoot their wad on the modeler, instead of spreading it across all the parts of the system to make a consistently strong chain.
 
It’s like the old adage, “a chain is no stronger than its weakest link.” As long as people go into the purchase with their eyes wide open then it’s fine, they know what they’re getting.

“Caveat emptor” applies to those who don’t know anything about FRFRs, or sound reinforcement or acoustics, who have no idea what it is they’re buying (or possibly no idea what they’re doing). There’s a huge amount of snake oil and marketing-speak full of glittering language and people shilling about this and that in the music industry, and musicians, especially young or new musicians, believe the malarkey that the next purchase will make them be better than they were, that it’s the key to “that sound”, or a magic bullet. That seems to be human nature.

The virus drove people to re-examine their dreams and goals because they were forced indoors and into their basements and bedrooms. Modelers were a great solution for the need to be able to make the sounds that they wanted without the fear of waking the entire neighborhood at 3 AM. The technology is new in comparison with regular ol’ amps so people are still scrambling to try to figure out how it works. The touring and recording pros have already figured it out but their knowledge is too esoteric for the neophytes who just want to make noise, and the costs of the gear shock them. They want the best but shoot their wad on the modeler, instead of spreading it across all the parts of the system to make a consistently strong chain.
There is wisdom in this. But also a strange bit of, IMHO, missing the point. I agree whole-heartedly about the snake oil. It's absolutely ridiculous just how bad it is in audio. But, I'm not on board with evening out your spend on the whole chain. That just means you've got more things to upgrade when/if you do.

A headrush is not going to be as "nice" as actually-nice monitors. It won't be as detailed or precise. It probably won't last as long. I'd imagine it has horrible directivity errors. But, it's loud and cheap. If it works, it works. And EQing it flatter will go a long way toward making it work. Guitar amps, in general, aren't exactly hi-fi devices to begin with. And the worst fall-out is if someone doesn't do something they want to because this attitude makes them think it's prohibitively expensive....5WW's thing about not doing because you don't have.

The curve discussed here is just like how room correction EQ goes a long way toward leveling the playing field between various entry-level studio monitors. They're all fine for what they are, but none of them are actually "good". If you take good measurements and force them all to follow a specific target curve...the differences between them aren't that big of a deal....it's almost like they're all the same until you're spending a couple grand....at which point, a few companies have started fixing the most egregious errors and there are actually stand-out high performers.

I'd imagine it's similar for the stage monitor & PA worlds, though I know a lot less about them.

FWIW....I'd much rather have a fractal, cheap speakers, and corrective EQ than some mid-range modeler and mid-range speakers. An FM3 and 2 FRFR-108s (or basically any entry-level studio monitors if you only play at home) costs about $1600 before tax & shipping. What are your other good options at that price point?

An HX Stomp and two CP8s?
A Hot Rod Deluxe and a couple pedals or an HX FX?
Are those really going to be better?

Depending on your needs, the FM3 could be basically end-game level. Are the CP8s? Is a HRD?

Also, the $500 for those speakers will get you a very capable wired IEM setup for yourself. The Presonus HP2 is good. If you're okay with both feeds being mono, you can even mix FOH or a monitor feed with a direct output from the Fractal on the box itself. And that still leaves you several hundred bucks for any number of good-sounding but imperfect generic-fit IEMs or headphones. Obviously, upgrading to wireless is both significantly better and substantially more expensive, but it's a start.

You could do a LOT worse starting out than getting an FM3, one Headrush to use as a floor wedge for the guitar-volume interaction if you need it or for jams, an HP2, and any number of viable ~$100 IEMs that can easily sound inspiring and "good enough" even if they're not perfect.

And except for the extra cables hanging off your belt and some detail in the in-ear sound....you'll get a very similar experience to dumping several grand into "doing it right".
 
That just means you've got more things to upgrade when/if you do.
Typically we should upgrade the weakest link, but it depends on what is changing, and what the change is addressing. Moving to an FX3 from an FM* because there's a need for more capacity/CPU means changing only that component.
 
Typically we should upgrade the weakest link, but it depends on what is changing, and what the change is addressing. Moving to an FX3 from an FM* because there's a need for more capacity/CPU means changing only that component.
Right. But, that's always true.

If you start with a "cheap" modeler and speaker, you just bought 2 weak links. By your own premise, it's more steps to get a "good" setup.
 
@marsonic
@Greg Ferguson
@Reaper
@Habuman
@scottp
@WKSmith

Well my FAS AX8 cost me $1450 CAD when I bought it used (no tax) and it came with a carrying leather bag. I added the U2 custom presets for another $400 CAD. (60 songs) . So my AX8 package (3 years old now) is worth about $1850 CAD . The two 108's I bought cost about $420 CAD ea with delivery, taxes etc. So I spent about $840 CAD on my stereo FRFR monitors. Pairing up an AX8 system worth $1450 CAD (without the presets) with FRFR worth $840 CAD is an even spread.

Had I purchased an AF3 or FM9 I may have invested in more expensive FRFR. That day may come , but how I'm loving the sounds out of my AX8 right now it may never be necessary.

I also have a Vox AC10 with pedals worth about $2000 CAD.

For gigging sometimes I wonder if it's easier to come with an AC10 with a guitar (no pedals) and gig , or cart a guitar, AX8, Exp pedal, and 2 FRFR's running in stereo? Not to mention the stands or table tops I need to bring to put them on. I know the AX8 is capable of so much more sound and versatility than a stock AC10 with a guitar but it's gets frustrating lugging around so much equipment to every gig, packing and unpacking every night out.

It also depends how much you're getting paid. If I was making $1000-$2000+ CAD a night performing (like at a wedding for 3 hrs) I wouldn't mind carting my AX8 system but if it's a $250 gig in a dungy spot it seems like I'm giving too much for too little.

No one has answered my question. It says 108's have a di output. Can I connect that output via xlr to FOH without any additional equipment regardless of the speakers vol setting? ( Whether it's on 3 or 11)? I don't know if it's a thru output. The folks at HR make it seem like connecting is seamless. I left them a message but they haven't gotten back to me yet.

I'm sure there are those on this forum that use their HR108 XLR outs to FOH. What has been your experience using it this way? Does vol play a role?
 
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