FC-12 arrives next week - uber-n00B question on Tap and Hold switch functions

[Bakerman]

Clever. We're still talking two switches, right? (As apposed to one switch with Tap and Hold functions.)

I don't know if a control switch can be a momentary hold function while another CS# is latching tap on the same switch. (No FC or Axe III here)

Doing as tap/hold on one switch requires that to be possible first.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

I guess I will try it when it gets here and let you know. If it does let me use tap & hold for these, you may have just opened a ton of possibilities up for controlling an A/B parameter state this way.

 

[Rex]

I just tried setting it up the way @Joe Bfstplk proposed in the OP: I set up a footswitch for a latching Control Switch on the tap function and a momentary Control Switch on the old function. It works, but with some unavoidable limitations:

1) There is a delay before the Hold function engages. This delay is however long you've specified in the Press and Hold Timeout parameter. By its nature, this delay cannot be zero, and a delayed momentary switch kind of interferes with its use.

2) Once you've engaged the momentary Hold function, letting it go will return the Rotary rate to whatever your "off" rate is, regardless of what your latching Tap state is. This is an unavoidable function of letting go of a momentary switch.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I just tried setting it up the way @Joe Bfstplk proposed in the OP: I set up a footswitch for a latching Control Switch on the tap function and a momentary Control Switch on the old function. It works, but with some unavoidable limitations:

1) There is a delay before the Hold function engages. This delay is however long you've specified in the Press and Hold Timeout parameter. By its nature, this delay cannot be zero, and a delayed momentary switch kind of interferes with its use.

2) Once you've engaged the momentary Hold function, letting it go will return the Rotary rate to whatever your "off" rate is, regardless of what your latching Tap state is. This is an unavoidable function of letting go of a momentary switch.

Hmmm... wonder what would happen if you used a latching style switch for one of the external switches ?

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

I just tried setting it up the way @Joe Bfstplk proposed in the OP: I set up a footswitch for a latching Control Switch on the tap function and a momentary Control Switch on the old function. It works, but with some unavoidable limitations:

1) There is a delay before the Hold function engages. This delay is however long you've specified in the Press and Hold Timeout parameter. By its nature, this delay cannot be zero, and a delayed momentary switch kind of interferes with its use.

2) Once you've engaged the momentary Hold function, letting it go will return the Rotary rate to whatever your "off" rate is, regardless of what your latching Tap state is. This is an unavoidable function of letting go of a momentary switch.

Cool, thanks! Now we know my original plan doesn't quite cut it.

Can't wait to have one here to try the LFO trick above. If that works, and can be set up so one is on tap and the other is on hold, then only the hold delay is left, which could be one of those "you get used to leading the ball" things. Leslies ramp up from slow to fast or vice-versa in a couple seconds, so as long as the hold delay isn't ridiculously long, the extra bit of time would be swallowed up by the 2 seconds it takes to speed up or slow down (actually the low rotor takes a bit longer, due to it being heavier, but the general gist is still the same).

Currently, I have CC 80, if memory serves me about the CC number associated with the CTL switch on the old Roland FC200, set to latching-switch, and no momentary available at all. I used to ages ago have a dual switch box, but I think it's in one of the old tube caddies I carried gear to gigs in back in the '90s, and hopefully the one that is still at the Drummer's place rather than the missing one....

 

[Rex]

Can't wait to have one here to try the LFO trick above. If that works, and can be set up so one is on tap and the other is on hold, then only the hold delay is left, which could be one of those "you get used to leading the ball" things. Leslies ramp up from slow to fast or vice-versa in a couple seconds, so as long as the hold delay isn't ridiculously long, the extra bit of time would be swallowed up by the 2 seconds it takes to speed up or slow down (actually the low rotor takes a bit longer, due to it being heavier, but the general gist is still the same).

It still seems like a kludgey compromise compared to using an expression pedal for this. Having to "lead the ball" is something I want to minimize during a performance.

Currently, I have CC 80, if memory serves me about the CC number associated with the CTL switch on the old Roland FC200, set to latching-switch, and no momentary available at all.

I used an FC200 for years with my Ultra and Axe-Fx II. I never cared for having just one CTL switch, so I hook a momentary external switch to the Mode jack. Now, with one stomp, I can have 11 CTL switches. (BTW, you can choose whether the pedal behaves as latching or momentary. I always kept them at momentary, which is more versatile with Fractal products (and the GP-100 I used to run).)

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

It still seems like a kludgey compromise compared to using an expression pedal for this. Having to "lead the ball" is something I want to minimize during a performance.



I used an FC200 for years with my Ultra and Axe-Fx II. I never cared for having just one CTL switch, so I hook a momentary external switch to the Mode jack. Now, with one stomp, I can have 11 CTL switches. (BTW, you can choose whether the pedal behaves as latching or momentary. I always kept them at momentary, which is more versatile with Fractal products (and the GP-100 I used to run).)

I perty much leave it in CC "pedalboard" mode. I had (ages ago) Velcroed a Yamaha sustain pedal to it next to the LED display to do just that, but when I pulled it out of mothballs, the Yamaha was missing.

I am currently using the bank up/down CC switches to increment/decrement the scene. As long as I keep track of how many ups and downs and ignore the LED on the two switches, it does ok. I am using all 13 CC switches and two external pedals. I was always pushing the envelope of what the gear could do back in the '90s. Now I have to work pretty doggone hard to find something it can't do 10x better than my old rack stuff did....

Can't wait to have scene 1, 2, 3, and 4 on tap and scene 5, 6, 7, and 8 on hold and do it all with 4 buttons. Hopefully that will work. Most other things seem both possible and reasonably intuitive.

 

[Bakerman]

I just tried setting it up the way @Joe Bfstplk proposed in the OP: I set up a footswitch for a latching Control Switch on the tap function and a momentary Control Switch on the old function. It works, but with some unavoidable limitations:

Two different control switch numbers, or the same CS# for tap/hold as latching/momentary? (Is the second thing even possible? I don't know if latching/momentary is set per FC switch function, or per CS#.)

If it was the same CS#, it's not surprising that releasing the hold function would go back to the slow speed. It wouldn't really make sense to use a hold=fast switch when it was already latched in the fast setting.

Note that this can't happen with the LFO approach I described. Holding the momentary switch will always go to the opposite speed when pressed, then back to the previous speed when released.

 

[Rex]

Two different control switch numbers, or the same CS# for tap/hold as latching/momentary? (Is the second thing even possible? I don't know if latching/momentary is set per FC switch function, or per CS#.)

The second thing. Latching/Momentary is one of the parameters you get when you assign a Control Switch to a specific switch action.

Then you assign that Control Switch to Rotary Rate as a modifier. I don't know of any gear that lets you assign more than one modifier to a parameter.

If it was the same CS#, it's not surprising that releasing the hold function would go back to the slow speed. It wouldn't really make sense to use a hold=fast switch when it was already latched in the fast setting.

Agreed on both counts.

Note that this can't happen with the LFO approach I described. Holding the momentary switch will always go to the opposite speed when pressed, then back to the previous speed when released.

It's a roundabout but elegant solution. I'm leaving that one on the table so @Joe Bfstplk can have some fun when he gets his FC.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

My FC is due to arrive today, so of course:

Ol' Murphy strikes again....

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Have one switch toggle LFO duty between 5% and 50% and the other toggle B phase between 18° & 180°. It doesn't matter which one gets the momentary switch.

Ran into a snag.

Apparently the LFO Output B Phase is not able to be controlled with a modifier on the 6.03 AxeFX III:

But, if I set the "C / V" switch to "momentary" instead of "latching", can I use a stand-in switch with a SPST off-on latching switch to stand in for the controller, maybe, to be the latching part, and still retain the nice pink indicator light?

 

[Bakerman]

FracPad can be used to assign a B phase modifier. For the last question, I'm not sure how that will work. Here's another thing you could check:

With a latching control switch assigned, can a latching (physically latching, tell Axe/FC it's latching) stand-in toggle the value with one press, regardless of onboard switch state? Specifically you'd want to test if the last external (E) press does anything here after one onboard (O) toggle: E-E-O-E

If it works, then you could use a (physically) momentary switch without changing any FC switch settings. Then you'd have the onboard latching function and external switch as momentary "other speed" always.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

FracPad can be used to assign a B phase modifier.

Interesting. So FracPad can do things that AxeEdit can't?

I have it and a license, which I acquired early last month, but have not yet installed it on my phone to try it, as a few bigger things popped up last month, and I am still getting back around to some things....

 

[Rex]

I have it and a license, which I acquired early last month, but have not yet installed it on my phone to try it, as a few bigger things popped up last month, and I am still getting back around to some things....

"I got a Ferrari and a license, but I haven't started it up yet. Bigger things and all..."

Fire it up. You'll be glad you did.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Fire it up. You'll be glad you did.

Will find all the info and work on it tomorrow as long as nothing goes haywire. June was a whole month of "haywire"....

 

[Bakerman]

Interesting. So FracPad can do things that AxeEdit can't?

Yes. Once the modifier's assigned it can be edited later from Axe-Edit's Controllers: Modifiers menu if needed.

Older AE versions could actually assign modifiers to any parameter on the Axe II if you edited a text file defining which ones allowed modifiers. The same file defined block page layouts and whether a parameter appeared as a slider/knob/list, and those could all be edited too. At some point in 2016 it seems the definitions became part of the executable file.

The sysex message format isn't too complicated, so these commands can be deduced monitoring Axe-Edit's output for other modifier assignment and parameter adjustment. FracPad makes it easier though.

You could also adjust B Phase by changing the control block channel, instead of via modifier. This might be tougher to work with when using other things in the control menu, because you'd have to duplicate later adjustments in two channels.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Yes. Once the modifier's assigned it can be edited later from Axe-Edit's Controllers: Modifiers menu if needed.

Older AE versions could actually assign modifiers to any parameter on the Axe II if you edited a text file defining which ones allowed modifiers. The same file defined block page layouts and whether a parameter appeared as a slider/knob/list, and those could all be edited too. At some point in 2016 it seems the definitions became part of the executable file.

The sysex message format isn't too complicated, so these commands can be deduced monitoring Axe-Edit's output for other modifier assignment and parameter adjustment. FracPad makes it easier though.

Ok, then, FracPad sounds like where to start. I haven't looked at the data of a SYSEX message since the '90s....

Makes me wonder if it's time to get a tablet. Will try on the phone first, and see how it goes....

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Looks like I waited too long to register FracPad, and need to get a new key. Email sent, will probably have to wait until tomorrow evening to try again, given that the developer is in Paris, and it's almost bedtime there already.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Apparently Alex responds to emails at all hours! Awesome. Poking around in FracPad and seeing how it looks.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

Ok, so I can't see a way in FracPad to assign the Output B Phase, but there are a couple of the "home" screen choices that are grayed out, so maybe the ability to do that hides under one of those. Not sure how to proceed with FracPad. Will see if there is a Manual to RTF....

Tried setting two different channels to the Chorale and Vibrato speeds, respectively, and using a Modifier on the speed to reverse the speed settings. This only works in the last channel you set the controller up for. Apparently the Modifier settings applied to twiddle a particular knob or setting are global to the block. It appears the "Channel" selector in the Modifier setup screen only selects whether the Modifier setting shown is assigned to All, A, B, C, or D, but there is only one set of settings stored for the knob being Modified. If we had separate Modifier settings per channel, this would work, as the hold function could be a momentary application of the Modifier while the tap function could be the channel toggle between A and B or a channel increment/decrement with a loop through A & B and wrapping turned on.

Have set the Controller switch to momentary, and plugging in a latching footswitch to use as a stand-in causes latching on/off action. The purple indicator on the board lights up bright or dim per the remote switch's on/off state. Stepping on the switch on the board momentarily switches to the "on" value even if already "on", and then switches to "off" when you let off of it, as one would expect, and the resulting "off" state set here overrides that of the stand-in switch. Subsequently, the stand-in switch needs to be hit twice - once to catch the FC's attention again, and again to switch to "on" again if the FC button was hit while in the "on" state. Upshot is that the "hallway" switch pair will work, but I should then avoid use of the switch it is standing in for, or just use the switch by itself, and not as a stand-in, and forego the nice purple LED indicator.

Using the latching external switch and the Controller set to "latching" makes for a similar action to a 2:1 reduction gear on a camshaft, i.e., two presses switches the state, then two more switches it back. A 4:1 reduction ratio is also possible if the "Virtual Toggle" mode for the external switch is selected. I have absolutely no idea what either of these would be useful for, but that's what it does....

Sure would be nice if the Modifier(s) could be set differently per channel, as this would allow what I want to do.

Since I have lived without this function thus far, I will probably just build a footswitch box for two functions and two knob controllers and hope that software updates can eventually make per-channel Modifier settings a thing. Surely that would be useful for more than just this, as a particular modifier could go 0-100% for Channel A but just 30-70% for Channel B, etc.