• We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

Electric Mistress Emulation - Axe-Fx III

Hi Everyone:

The Electric Mistress Flanger is one of my very favorite effects of all time. With a Strat, wow...grew up as a teenager in Louisiana, listening to Robin Trower's "In City Dreams" and also "Caravan to Midnight" records, and then of course Andy Summers with The Police...

Over the years this effect has proven quite elusive to "clone," but after a lot time invested and careful listening based on a MOOER E- Lady, I've gotten super close!

First is the Flanger layout. Use an Analog Mono, before an amp (I like the JTM45 set up clean with a hint of grit). Here are the Flanger Block settings (see Axe-Edit III screen shot below).

The LOG LFO type is crucially important, as is turning AUTO DEPTH off. The "sweep" is kinda of like a song verse pattern with 8 beats, as you will hear (if listen carefully) that the flanger sweep is different on beats 1-4 (lower range sweep) and then goes an octave higher in the sweep on beats 5-8 -- and then repeats! Turn FEEDBACK up and you will hear it.

The FEEDBACK is the E-Lady's COLOR Control. It is very sensitive in real life and on the Axe-Fx Flanger block -- try it carefully between 60% and 79%.

The DEPTH is the E-Lady's RATE control. I set it at 19.4% as I listened to the sweep, going A/B against the real deal... If you change it to higher values, you will hear the sweep does not reach as high, and going higer eventually it gets "warble-ly" and out of tune (also fun).

Another secret: Put the overall Wet/Dry mix at 67% wet, and play with that from 60% to 85% - you will perceive it sounds like it also interacts with the overall feedback setting . You need a big blend of the flanged sound with the original signal to replicate it convincingly here.

Another MUST-DO: You also have to set up an LFO CONTROLLER page (separate, see second screen shot) that controls the sweep from 0.10ms to .335 ms as the range. You access the Controllers page button is at the top 1/3 left of your Axe-Edit III screen.

I'm attaching the actual blocks you need to try this out as well. If you use them, go to channel B for the Analog Mono flanger - that's the main E-Lady one. You can play with channels C and D for Stereo, I had to quite for the night....

This is the kind of useful stuff I want to include in a future comprehensive Axe--Fx III Effects Library TonePack project...already done some drive and delay blocks....later half of the year maybe!

Enjoy, and thanks to Admin M@ who encouraged me on this one!

ELECTRIC MISTRESS/E-LADY EMULATION IN THE AXE-FX III

View attachment 54955 View attachment 54956
I love that you are doing an effects collection!!!
I have ur 1000 amps and love them
Can’t wait!!!
 

Dunconia

Inspired
I'm all for going all out to replicate specific effects. I like the example 2112 posted. The vibe is there, but the LFO shapes of mine were different. The first half of that clip sounds very much like my old units, but neither of mine lingered at the extremes of the sweep. The second half doesn't really sound like them at all though.
Maybe a customizable LFO is a good feature request.
 

austinbuddy

Fractal Fanatic
Maybe a customizable LFO is a good feature request.
Remember -- by assigning the needed LFO via a Modifier to the Time/ms parameter (which, as I understand it, supersedes the LFO value in flanger modulating the delay time in favor of the newly assigned Modifier in the Controllers block), you can in fact mess with the shape of the LFO wave cycle, bend it and squish it -- so we do have some of that ability now....
 

Zedhed

Inspired
Would love to see more people doing/sharing custom FX blocks like this.
Yeah I'd love to see a 'block exchange' like preset exchange. The value of a personal block library can't be underestimated IMHO. Yes I know blocks can be pulled from presets to the library but I'd love to be able to just grab a block to audition. Does anyone know off hand if this idea been asked for in requests section?

Thanks for sharing AB. I too can't wait to try your blocks.
 

Dunconia

Inspired
Remember -- by assigning the needed LFO via a Modifier to the Time/ms parameter (which, as I understand it, supersedes the LFO value in flanger modulating the delay time in favor of the newly assigned Modifier in the Controllers block), you can in fact mess with the shape of the LFO wave cycle, bend it and squish it -- so we do have some of that ability now....
Can you explain that again? Are you saying that the rate parameter still has an effect in the flanger block even though you are using a modifier?
 

austinbuddy

Fractal Fanatic
Can you explain that again? Are you saying that the rate parameter still has an effect in the flanger block even though you are using a modifier?
@Admin M@ can chime in if I'm wrong (and I am definitely am at times; I am not a true tech guy!). The flanger has it's own RATE control in it used to control the delay time sweep.

But if you attach a modifier to the Delay time (as I have in the Electric Mistress emulation) and point the modifier's source to be the Controller Block's LFO (there are los of options it can be, including ADSR and Env Filter, etc), that assignment in essence overrides the flanger block's own RATE (LFO) set in favor of the Controller Block's LFO.

Why this is useful: the Controller Block's LFO and the Modifier window itself have all kinds of options to shape/affect the LFO that the Rate LFO in the flanger block alone does not have.

Hope that makes sense. I am away from my machines, but this should work -- in the block I sent, if you move the flanger block's Rate, does anything change? It shouldn't, because the LFO being used is the Controller Block...unless I'm WRONG! ;)
 

Dunconia

Inspired
@Admin M@ can chime in if I'm wrong (and I am definitely am at times; I am not a true tech guy!). The flanger has it's own RATE control in it used to control the delay time sweep.

But if you attach a modifier to the Delay time (as I have in the Electric Mistress emulation) and point the modifier's source to be the Controller Block's LFO (there are los of options it can be, including ADSR and Env Filter, etc), that assignment in essence overrides the flanger block's own RATE (LFO) set in favor of the Controller Block's LFO.

Why this is useful: the Controller Block's LFO and the Modifier window itself have all kinds of options to shape/affect the LFO that the Rate LFO in the flanger block alone does not have.

Hope that makes sense. I am away from my machines, but this should work -- in the block I sent, if you move the flanger block's Rate, does anything change? It shouldn't, because the LFO being used is the Controller Block...unless I'm WRONG! ;)
Thanks for the clarification. I just need to play around with it. From the manual, it looks like the log curve can’t be reshaped, but there’s probably some sort of voodoo to reshape the curve. Very cool stuff!
 

Admin M@

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
@Admin M@ can chime in if I'm wrong (and I am definitely am at times; I am not a true tech guy!). The flanger has it's own RATE control in it used to control the delay time sweep.

But if you attach a modifier to the Delay time (as I have in the Electric Mistress emulation) and point the modifier's source to be the Controller Block's LFO (there are los of options it can be, including ADSR and Env Filter, etc), that assignment in essence overrides the flanger block's own RATE (LFO) set in favor of the Controller Block's LFO.

Why this is useful: the Controller Block's LFO and the Modifier window itself have all kinds of options to shape/affect the LFO that the Rate LFO in the flanger block alone does not have.

Hope that makes sense. I am away from my machines, but this should work -- in the block I sent, if you move the flanger block's Rate, does anything change? It shouldn't, because the LFO being used is the Controller Block...unless I'm WRONG! ;)
Yes, but to create really accurate virtual LFOs, don't use the LFO controllers. Instead, use the Sequencer with some damping.

For example:

Axe-Edit III 2019-05-16 14-43-23.jpg
 

austinbuddy

Fractal Fanatic
I don't find there is any real secret, just have to pretty much twist knobs, take a listen, swap back to the real pedal, take a listen, and repeat til it sound about right. I don't know what half the parameters technically do, but I can get an idea of sonically what is happening, and if its in the right direction of what I'm after.

Often what seems like it would make sense does anything but... for example, I would of thought I wanted a good bit of depth to the effect, but like 15-20% is more than enough, gets super crazy sounds past that range, BUT, on so many hardware pedals I might run something like depth at 80%, though on the Axe, maybe 20% equals 80% or more, as a parameter can have a much, much wider possible range. Point being, you really have to throw convention out the window sometimes and just adjust with what your ears are telling you, not what "seems" like a reasonable setting per hardware.

The tones are certainly in the Axe
I totally agree with you lqdsnddist -- it helps to know what is happening parameter by parameter, but twisting knobs can yield some great results. And I agree you can't always assume a 1:1 correlation with a real pedal and an Axe-Fx parameter...using your ears is the way go!
 

austinbuddy

Fractal Fanatic
It's one reason I still run some pedals. I know it might be possible to emulate some of them, but I don't know how to do it.
Me too -- especially fuzz pedals in front before the Axe III before the buffer.

And I had two E-Lady's on my board but am excited we are closing in on this so I can maybe pull them off altogether!
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
Me too -- especially fuzz pedals in front before the Axe III before the buffer.

And I had two E-Lady's on my board but am excited we are closing in on this so I can maybe pull them off altogether!
I figure since I’ve been able to sell off so many modulation and drive pedals I have plenty of extra cash to put into my hobby of building DIY fuzz boxes, which really are the one thing that it may never be possible to fully emulate in any buffered digital audio device lol
 

Sleestak

Forum Addict
@Admin M@ I have a related question: can I set the sequencer to run just a single cycle? Here's what I have in mind: I'm programming some tones for an upcoming tour, and want to be able to initiate a tempo-locked volume / modulation sequence that should run just once and then stop. This way I can set up a very accurate staging for the effects control and cross-mix, and initiate the sequence from a button press, without having to take any action to prevent it from repeating the cycle. Is this possible?
 

austinbuddy

Fractal Fanatic
Look what I found! A technical explanation of the Electric Mistress along with tech specs of the circuit and how it works. I'm not an engineer so don't understand much of this. But I wondering about somethings this unique flanger does that we might need some tricks to do in our Axe-Fx IIIs.

Screen Shot 2019-06-23 at 11.17.56 PM.png


And here is some of the tech talk on what makes the LFO so hard to clone precisely in our Axe-Fx III... I'm using the Exponential LFOI think in the block I posted (cloning from an ELady version by Mooer) but clearly more is going on?

"The LFO is rather complicated. It consists of two comparators and a Flip-Flop. The Flip-Flop works like a switch commanding if the LFO voltage (VLFO) is de- or increasing. The Flip-Flop inputs CLOCK and DATA are attached to ground so we use only SET and RESET. The outputs are Q and inverse Q.

The RESET input pin 4 of the 4013 is equal to 0.6 * VLFO . If the RESET voltage is lower than 6 V it is considered low, if it is higher than 6 V it is considered high. The SET input is fed by pin 13 of the LM339. V+ (pin 11 LM339) is set to a constant voltage of 0.4 V. VLFO is attached to V- (pin 10). If VLFO is smaller than 0.4 SET is set to high by pin 13 of the LM339. If VLFO is greater than 0.4 V SET is set to low.

The switching logic in this special application is:
At the beginning SET is high and RESET is low. Q is high and Qinv is low which will give the charging command. VLFO rises. If VLFO is greater than 0.4 V SET is set low but the Flip-Flop keeps its state. VLFO keeps rising. If RESET reaches 6 V the Flip-Flop toggles and the discharging command is given. VLFO decreases. RESET falls to low, but the Flip-Flop keeps its state. VLFO decreases. If VLFO drops below 0.4 V SET is set high and the cycle starts from beginning.


SETRESET QQinvVLFO
1010rising
0010rising
0101falling
0001falling
1010rising
...
In the above it says Q and Qinv command charge and discharge, but how? Q and Qinv are connected via two different resistors which form a voltage divider. If Q is low and Qinv is high, the voltage to the RATE pot is 9 V. If Q is high and Qinf is low, the voltage to the RATE pot is 3 V.

V+ (pin 5 LM399) is set to constant 6 V. If Q is high and V- (pin 4 LM399) is 9 V the output pin 2 is high. The 2.2 uF capacitor will be charged by the 4.7 k resistor. If Q is low and V- is 3 V the output pin 2 is low. The 2.2 uF capacitor will be discharged by the comparator.

To explain how the RATE command works we need to concentrate on the 2.2 uF capacitor. One side is attached to VLFO the other side is attached the Q/Qinv charge/discharge command voltage. If VLFO rises, the VLFO charging voltage is the positive potential and Qinv is the negative potential. The smaller the RATE resistor is, the higher the charging current for the transistor is and the faster VLFO rises. If VLFO falls, pin 2 LM399 is the negative potential and Qinv is the positive potential. The smaller the RATE resistor is, the higher the discharging current for the transistor is and the faster VLFO falls."



Pretty cool. I'd be thrilled if, since we have the specs (the link contains much more data), maybe one day @FractalAudio could create a specific Electric Mistress algorithm in the flanger block for the earliest units - that would be nice if doable. The website talks about the various changes made from 1976-1980+, but Gilmour and Trower used the earlier 3 button across top (not down side) versions.... (not sure about Andy Summers).

Just love this sound so much! Not giving up on eventually nailing these effects tones in the Axe-Fx III somehow...
 

Eliju

Veteran
Look what I found! A technical explanation of the Electric Mistress along with tech specs of the circuit and how it works. I'm not an engineer so don't understand much of this. But I wondering about somethings this unique flanger does that we might need some tricks to do in our Axe-Fx IIIs.

View attachment 55966


And here is some of the tech talk on what makes the LFO so hard to clone precisely in our Axe-Fx III... I'm using the Exponential LFOI think in the block I posted (cloning from an ELady version by Mooer) but clearly more is going on?

"The LFO is rather complicated. It consists of two comparators and a Flip-Flop. The Flip-Flop works like a switch commanding if the LFO voltage (VLFO) is de- or increasing. The Flip-Flop inputs CLOCK and DATA are attached to ground so we use only SET and RESET. The outputs are Q and inverse Q.

The RESET input pin 4 of the 4013 is equal to 0.6 * VLFO . If the RESET voltage is lower than 6 V it is considered low, if it is higher than 6 V it is considered high. The SET input is fed by pin 13 of the LM339. V+ (pin 11 LM339) is set to a constant voltage of 0.4 V. VLFO is attached to V- (pin 10). If VLFO is smaller than 0.4 SET is set to high by pin 13 of the LM339. If VLFO is greater than 0.4 V SET is set to low.

The switching logic in this special application is:
At the beginning SET is high and RESET is low. Q is high and Qinv is low which will give the charging command. VLFO rises. If VLFO is greater than 0.4 V SET is set low but the Flip-Flop keeps its state. VLFO keeps rising. If RESET reaches 6 V the Flip-Flop toggles and the discharging command is given. VLFO decreases. RESET falls to low, but the Flip-Flop keeps its state. VLFO decreases. If VLFO drops below 0.4 V SET is set high and the cycle starts from beginning.


SETRESETQQinvVLFO
1010rising
0010rising
0101falling
0001falling
1010rising
...
In the above it says Q and Qinv command charge and discharge, but how? Q and Qinv are connected via two different resistors which form a voltage divider. If Q is low and Qinv is high, the voltage to the RATE pot is 9 V. If Q is high and Qinf is low, the voltage to the RATE pot is 3 V.

V+ (pin 5 LM399) is set to constant 6 V. If Q is high and V- (pin 4 LM399) is 9 V the output pin 2 is high. The 2.2 uF capacitor will be charged by the 4.7 k resistor. If Q is low and V- is 3 V the output pin 2 is low. The 2.2 uF capacitor will be discharged by the comparator.

To explain how the RATE command works we need to concentrate on the 2.2 uF capacitor. One side is attached to VLFO the other side is attached the Q/Qinv charge/discharge command voltage. If VLFO rises, the VLFO charging voltage is the positive potential and Qinv is the negative potential. The smaller the RATE resistor is, the higher the charging current for the transistor is and the faster VLFO rises. If VLFO falls, pin 2 LM399 is the negative potential and Qinv is the positive potential. The smaller the RATE resistor is, the higher the discharging current for the transistor is and the faster VLFO falls."



Pretty cool. I'd be thrilled if, since we have the specs (the link contains much more data), maybe one day @FractalAudio could create a specific Electric Mistress algorithm in the flanger block for the earliest units - that would be nice if doable. The website talks about the various changes made from 1976-1980+, but Gilmour and Trower used the earlier 3 button across top (not down side) versions.... (not sure about Andy Summers).

Just love this sound so much! Not giving up on eventually nailing these effects tones in the Axe-Fx III somehow...

I showed this to my friend and he said the LFO waveshape should look something like what Admin M@ posted above. So that’s one thing that should get us closer to nailing it. It’s way more complicated than that, but that’s the simplest thing to try first.
 

Freds55

Veteran
Hi Everyone:

The Electric Mistress Flanger is one of my very favorite effects of all time. With a Strat, wow...grew up as a teenager in Louisiana, listening to Robin Trower's "In City Dreams" and also "Caravan to Midnight" records, and then of course Andy Summers with The Police...

Over the years this effect has proven quite elusive to "clone," but after a lot time invested and careful listening based on a MOOER E- Lady, I've gotten super close!

First is the Flanger layout. Use an Analog Mono, before an amp (I like the JTM45 set up clean with a hint of grit). Here are the Flanger Block settings (see Axe-Edit III screen shot below).

The LOG LFO type is crucially important, as is turning AUTO DEPTH off. The "sweep" is kinda of like a song verse pattern with 8 beats, as you will hear (if listen carefully) that the flanger sweep is different on beats 1-4 (lower range sweep) and then goes an octave higher in the sweep on beats 5-8 -- and then repeats! Turn FEEDBACK up and you will hear it.

The FEEDBACK is the E-Lady's COLOR Control. It is very sensitive in real life and on the Axe-Fx Flanger block -- try it carefully between 60% and 79%.

The DEPTH is the E-Lady's RATE control. I set it at 19.4% as I listened to the sweep, going A/B against the real deal... If you change it to higher values, you will hear the sweep does not reach as high, and going higer eventually it gets "warble-ly" and out of tune (also fun).

Another secret: Put the overall Wet/Dry mix at 67% wet, and play with that from 60% to 85% - you will perceive it sounds like it also interacts with the overall feedback setting . You need a big blend of the flanged sound with the original signal to replicate it convincingly here.

Another MUST-DO: You also have to set up an LFO CONTROLLER page (separate, see second screen shot) that controls the sweep from 0.10ms to .335 ms as the range. You access the Controllers page button is at the top 1/3 left of your Axe-Edit III screen.

I'm attaching the actual blocks you need to try this out as well. If you use them, go to channel B for the Analog Mono flanger - that's the main E-Lady one. You can play with channels C and D for Stereo, I had to quit for the night....

This is the kind of useful stuff I want to include in a future comprehensive Axe--Fx III Effects Library TonePack project...already done some drive and delay blocks....later half of the year maybe!

Enjoy, and thanks to Admin M@ who encouraged me on this one!

ELECTRIC MISTRESS/E-LADY EMULATION IN THE AXE-FX III

View attachment 54955 View attachment 54956
Wow very cool I still have a deluxe electric mistress flanger I traded a surfboard for it in the late 70s I still love the thing and still use it from time to time along with an original Big muff so cool.
They both spend a lot of time in the land of misfit effects pedals lol.
Can’t wait to check this out sweet.
Thank you AustinBuddy :D
 

austinbuddy

Fractal Fanatic
So I haven't emulated M@'s idea above yet, but I did make a Robin Trower preset tonight and am attaching here.

I used a Leon Todd V30/Greenbacks IR user cab (the one inlcuded in 1400+ Naked Amps TonePack update) so you can mute that if your user cabs pointsto something different, but the Factory Greenbacks M160 as the second panned cab sounds fine.

There are a few variations on the Electric Mistress in it, plus Bridge of Sighs univibe.

Remember to keep your Strat volume to between 7 and 8.5 - don't go higher, and use the neck pickup for leads. Enjoy!
 

Attachments

iaresee

Moderator
Moderator
So I haven't emulated M@'s idea above yet, but I did make a Robin Trower preset tonight and am attaching here.

I used a Leon Todd V30/Greenbacks IR user cab (the one inlcuded in 1400+ Naked Amps TonePack update) so you can mute that if your user cabs pointsto something different, but the Factory Greenbacks M160 as the second panned cab sounds fine.

There are a few variations on the Electric Mistress in it, plus Bridge of Sighs univibe.

Remember to keep your Strat volume to between 7 and 8.5 - don't go higher, and use the neck pickup for leads. Enjoy!
Mi gusta.

 
Top Bottom