Do You Hear a Difference

[ML SOUND LAB]

It's page 19 and people are still posting spectrum curves when this has been about dynamics all along which are not measurable by spectrum curves. Dynamics and EQ are two different things. So far there's been almost no talk at all about dynamics which started this whole conversation. And no, dynamics are not just getting a clean sound by lowering your volume on the guitar. Dynamics are time based transients a lot faster than the time it takes to roll down the volume of your guitar.

That just tells us that not everyone really understands what they're talking about. Be it someone working for FAS or not. A simple way of explaining this so everyone understands me is: I can match EQ me screaming to have the same EQ balance as a guitar amp and post a graph like that but I'm 100% sure people are able to tell which is which because it will not make me sound like a guitar. EQ is not everything.

This is why I assumed the "difference" might be because of dynamics that the IR is not able to capture or the amp sim not being that accurate with shorter transients or maybe both.

 

[mrMagenta]

Could be as you say. When I wrote fairly loud, I meant to say : at a distinct mixing volume, some 80 - 85db. I listened only for a bunch of loops, at most a few minutes, so no physical fatigue. Might be psychological, like watching a heard of zebras.

I sometimes experience fatigue when making presets, but that's usually over way longer time than this test.
I've often made similar listening to this, for instance when choosing components for hi-fi speaker filters.. doesn't take long until you can't tell, and you begin scaling up the difference between component values to find a difference. So I acknowledge your point.

 

[BigD1977]

Could be as you say. When I wrote fairly loud, I meant to say : at a distinct mixing volume, some 80 - 85db. I listened only for a bunch of loops, at most a few minutes, so no physical fatigue. Might be psychological, like watching a heard of zebras.

I sometimes experience fatigue when making presets, but that's usually over way longer time than this test.
I've often made similar listening to this, for instance when choosing components for hi-fi speaker filters.. doesn't take long until you can't tell, and you begin scaling up the difference between component values to find a difference. So I acknowledge your point.

Oh I hear you on the hifi thing! (No pun intended.......)

Facets of perception fascinate me, tbh.

 

[Jan Geerts]

Checked this one again, and it's still clear as day to me, can't hear it in the other poll

 

[trancegodz]

In the "Questioning" thread I posted the waveform of the Axe-Fx followed by the real amp. I then posted the clip for that waveform. Do you hear a difference?

http://www.fractalaudio.com/tmp/triaxis_comp.mp3

Here's the same clip but with the parts reversed:

www.fractalaudio.com/tmp/triaxis_comp_reversed.mp3

In the first clip, the first section seems like it might be slightly brighter sounding than the second half of the first clip. They sound almost identical to me.

 

[electronpirate]

It's page 19 and people are still posting spectrum curves when this has been about dynamics all along which are not measurable by spectrum curves. Dynamics and EQ are two different things. So far there's been almost no talk at all about dynamics which started this whole conversation. And no, dynamics are not just getting a clean sound by lowering your volume on the guitar. Dynamics are time based transients a lot faster than the time it takes to roll down the volume of your guitar.

That just tells us that not everyone really understands what they're talking about. Be it someone working for FAS or not. A simple way of explaining this so everyone understands me is: I can match EQ me screaming to have the same EQ balance as a guitar amp and post a graph like that but I'm 100% sure people are able to tell which is which because it will not make me sound like a guitar. EQ is not everything.

This is why I assumed the "difference" might be because of dynamics that the IR is not able to capture or the amp sim not being that accurate with shorter transients or maybe both.

<Moderator hat off...please feel free to comment (expletive free please) without retaliation>

Okay, on page one, I posted that this is a question of 'just decide'. If you believe the dynamics come across in your recordings more than the Axe Fx, then go the amp route. For 95% of musicians (who KNOW that it's a modeler, in which case they're not listening they're JUDGING), and .0001% of civilians, tone is a NON issue unless it's outright bad (and that's not even true...listen to some of the crap that has gone platinum). If you're going for 'amp in the room', then I believe your approach is way off base here in a recording sense. *Maybe* it's dynamics in the IR, but as someone who has plenty of time doing this, an IR will NEVER replace the guitar interacting with a loud amp and cab unless it's placed in the same situation. Most people I see recording here are doing so while wife and kids are in the next room...

I listened reasonably to your post until the 'A simple way of explaining this so everyone understands me is:' Who doesn't love to be patronized? We have quite a few large brains here. Track record: You've already told us NOT to question your recording technique (which was proved wrong,) and assured us that your recording producer/engineer is at the top of the heap (remains to be seen.) Maybe he is, but as far as you're concerned, I know very few artists who spend this much time on internet boards arguing the finer points of amp dynamics at length instead of actually recording and playing.

Dude, just get a few tube amps, and quit debating this noise. I appreciate that you might be trying to improve the product to some extent, but at this point you just seem like someone who wants attention more than your forum footprint should allow. Your signature makes this pretty conspicuous. You've proved you (or your buddy) has deep pockets, and can buy amps at will. So DO that. Please. 'The whole world is crazy, and I'm the only one who's sane' vibe has lost it's allure.

Again, it is totally appreciated what you bring to the board; some of it is good stuff, but can you use your inside voice?

<mod hat re-don'd>

R

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

My test was never proven wrong. I did everything right. I think I got closer the second time around with the Dual Recto but only because I tone matched it. I can even give you the IR and clips so you can try it yourself. The first time with the Triaxis I trusted MIMIC and used the same EQ settings and it was simply not close enough.

What's weird to me is that many people are now saying that the Axe-Fx isn't meant to replace tube amps and an IR wasn't meant to replace a cab. That would sure make a nice slogan for FAS. That's probably the most common reason people buy the Axe-Fx.

I guess right now this is all just talk and the issue I'm talking about has been noted by FAS and if they're interested in exploring it further we may see enhancements on this in the future. Going on and on about it doesn't really make a difference anymore. I just saw that people weren't talking about what the issue was and thought I'd straighten it out.

Dynamics are not EQ.

 

[Marcus Siepen]

Dynamics are not EQ, I agree. But this whole discussion about if there is a difference or not... Let me put it like this:
Switch on your fave tube amp and record a Riff. Wait half an hour, record the Riff again, it will sound different after the amp really warmed up. Break a string, switch to your backup guitar, you will, sound different. Blow up a tube, replace it, you will sound different. Blow up the amp, use your backup amp (same model, same settings, same everything), you will sound different. Do a Soundcheck at a gig, you will sound different when people are actually inside the venue. Store your fave preset in the Axe Fx, use it tonight, everything sounds great, use it tomorrow at a different venue, you will sound different... Think about it

Gesendet von meinem Nexus 7 mit Tapatalk

 

[Irotlas]

To me, these comparisons have nothing to do with eQ differences because naturally all amps sound different even it's the same amp model. People are commenting that one clip has more bass etc blaa blaa...thats not the point at all.. match eQ will do that if we want the "sound" / eQ balance...

These little differences doesn't matter that much in the mix and average listener don't give a sh*t if it just sounds good, axe fx ii can do that. But for some people like me as a guitar player (and drummer hehe) it matters how everything feels...(and don't start the FRFR vs cab is not the same thing again, I know that)

Don't take this too seriously but:

Real drums vs superior(electric drumkit), you can make superior sound REAL and really good in the mix and most people can't tell is it real or not. But drummers more likely wants to play real kit for the feel and other factors.

Real amp vs axe fx ii, same scenario IMO. Hehe but of course we are talking drums and guitars so don't get this wrong

maybe more accurate demonstration it's just the slave out of mesa + axe fx amp sim and NO cab involved..then you can really hear how much more bite and attack real amp has..but I have posted that kind of comparison like a year ago it was for nothing as usual, so I don't bother anymore.

I'm now REALLY happy that I have axe fx II and a real good old 2ch recto amp, best of both worlds. (and a REALLY big TAMA drum kit and superior in my computer )

 

[laughyouraxeoff]

I have noticed that the dynamics of the Axe II has improved greatly over the past 2 years. That feel I get when playing, the connection is what drive me to be creative, and play longer. I don't have any problems with the dynamics of the Axe II as it is, but like most people I wouldn't mind if they were improved if it's possible

 

[steadystate]

<Moderator hat off...please feel free to comment (expletive free please) without retaliation>

Okay, on page one, I posted that this is a question of 'just decide'. If you believe the dynamics come across in your recordings more than the Axe Fx, then go the amp route. For 95% of musicians (who KNOW that it's a modeler, in which case they're not listening they're JUDGING), and .0001% of civilians, tone is a NON issue unless it's outright bad (and that's not even true...listen to some of the crap that has gone platinum). If you're going for 'amp in the room', then I believe your approach is way off base here in a recording sense. *Maybe* it's dynamics in the IR, but as someone who has plenty of time doing this, an IR will NEVER replace the guitar interacting with a loud amp and cab unless it's placed in the same situation. Most people I see recording here are doing so while wife and kids are in the next room...

I listened reasonably to your post until the 'A simple way of explaining this so everyone understands me is:' Who doesn't love to be patronized? We have quite a few large brains here. Track record: You've already told us NOT to question your recording technique (which was proved wrong,) and assured us that your recording producer/engineer is at the top of the heap (remains to be seen.) Maybe he is, but as far as you're concerned, I know very few artists who spend this much time on internet boards arguing the finer points of amp dynamics at length instead of actually recording and playing.

Dude, just get a few tube amps, and quit debating this noise. I appreciate that you might be trying to improve the product to some extent, but at this point you just seem like someone who wants attention more than your forum footprint should allow. Your signature makes this pretty conspicuous. You've proved you (or your buddy) has deep pockets, and can buy amps at will. So DO that. Please. 'The whole world is crazy, and I'm the only one who's sane' vibe has lost it's allure.

Again, it is totally appreciated what you bring to the board; some of it is good stuff, but can you use your inside voice?

<mod hat re-don'd>

R

Right on target. Look at the very first sentences of his immediate reply of your above post. And he still takes responsibility for "improving" the product based on his baseless comments and inaccurate/meaningless tests. I've decided to view him as I would a reality show that claims to be real , but it is nothing more than a scripted and pre-conceived vehicle for ratings.

 

[steadystate]

I don't have any problems with the dynamics of the Axe II as it is, but like most people I wouldn't mind if they were improved if it's possible

They will be. Through the efforts of Fractal and Fractal alone. They aren't sitting on their hands waiting for some keyboard jockey on the forum to tell them what needs to be done to improve the amp models or IRs. While they do listen to customers, and even implement the best specific suggestions for features, they and they alone know what needs to be coded to improve the amp and cab blocks. Everyone at Fractal is a self-starter. All the way. The conceit that the Axe would not develop as quickly were it not for my criticisms is laughable.

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

'The whole world is crazy, and I'm the only one who's sane' vibe has lost it's allure.

40% of the people voting in this thread heard a difference even when even the real Triaxis is going through the same IR (which is only 50% of the "difference" I was talking about in my thread) so there's a fact showing that I'm not the only one. And why is it that I had to give extremely accurate specifics about my test when the OP of this thread doesn't really have to tell us anything about how the test went down? Why am I questioned when I have given more information about the test? Explain or admit that you're biased.

Right on target. Look at the very first sentences of his immediate reply of your above post. And he still takes responsibility for "improving" the product based on his baseless comments and inaccurate/meaningless tests. I've decided to view him as I would a reality show that claims to be real , but it is nothing more than a scripted and pre-conceived vehicle for ratings.

Everyone who is active on this forum and shares their experience be it positive or negative is improving the product. That's one of the best things about the Axe-Fx.

They will be. Through the efforts of Fractal and Fractal alone. They aren't sitting on their hands waiting for some keyboard jockey on the forum to tell them what needs to be done to improve the amp models or IRs. While they do listen to customers, and even implement the best specific suggestions for features, they and they alone know what needs to be coded to improve the amp and cab blocks. Everyone at Fractal is a self-starter. All the way. The conceit that the Axe would not develop as quickly were it not for my criticisms is laughable.

I'm not sure if you understand how software development works but there's even a bug section on this forum so that FAS can develop the Axe-Fx to be better. This is not a bug but f.ex. people wanted the FW9 vibe and they got it in the next firmware. People wanted cooling for the Axe-Fx so they made a new chassis. I could state over a dozen cases where the Axe-Fx has taken steps further because of individual users sharing their experience.

You guys are getting emotional because this topic is too close to you. One of you is a moderator here and the other one used to be a Triaxis guy who has threads about failing to nail his Triaxis tones. You guys are as biased as people could possibly be. That right there is a fact based statement. Not calling you guys names or any other uneducated way of handling an arguement. You can call me what ever you want but that does not change facts. 40% of people noticed a difference in this clip that was posted by the boss himself stating that he doesn't hear a difference. Sure that might piss you off but don't shoot the messenger, you should know better.

So what is it? Are you against evolution and further development? I don't understand where you're coming from.

 

[Kriig]

To me, these comparisons have nothing to do with eQ differences because naturally all amps sound different even it's the same amp model. People are commenting that one clip has more bass etc blaa blaa...thats not the point at all.. match eQ will do that if we want the "sound" / eQ balance...

These little differences doesn't matter that much in the mix and average listener don't give a sh*t if it just sounds good, axe fx ii can do that. But for some people like me as a guitar player (and drummer hehe) it matters how everything feels...(and don't start the FRFR vs cab is not the same thing again, I know that)

Don't take this too seriously but:

Real drums vs superior(electric drumkit), you can make superior sound REAL and really good in the mix and most people can't tell is it real or not. But drummers more likely wants to play real kit for the feel and other factors.

Real amp vs axe fx ii, same scenario IMO. Hehe but of course we are talking drums and guitars so don't get this wrong

maybe more accurate demonstration it's just the slave out of mesa + axe fx amp sim and NO cab involved..then you can really hear how much more bite and attack real amp has..but I have posted that kind of comparison like a year ago it was for nothing as usual, so I don't bother anymore.

I'm now REALLY happy that I have axe fx II and a real good old 2ch recto amp, best of both worlds. (and a REALLY big TAMA drum kit and superior in my computer )

Yep. Take things for what they are and use it to inspire. Inspiration makes good music & art in general(mostly).

 

[steadystate]

I don't understand where you're coming from.

Agreed. Perhaps you haven't read what I have written....or what you have written for that matter.

 

[ElectricPhase]

So what is it? Are you against evolution and further development? I don't understand where you're coming from.

I'm not going to engage in the topic as it has been framed, but I thought something might be worth pointing out. Starting from the original Axe-FX Standard and proceeding all the way to the present, nearly all of the major improvements to the Axe-FX have been on Fractal Audio's initiative rather than responding to gripes or complaints. Yes, there have been instances where a feature or a dozen were added from the "wish list", but the big stuff all came along unasked for and unexpectedly due to the genius and dedication of this outfit. Cliff and his team have demonstrated repeatedly that they know their product's shortcomings better than we ever could....by fixing them. Rather spectacularly.

 

[Sidivan]

I just want to say this: I don't give a flying f*** about how accurate the axe fx is to the real thing. What I DO care about is a great sounding, compact, and extremely versatile rig. I have that. Also, Firmware v13 is absolutely incredible, so thank you Cliff and Team for that.

 

[barhrecords]

It's page 19 and people are still posting spectrum curves when this has been about dynamics all along which are not measurable by spectrum curves. Dynamics and EQ are two different things. So far there's been almost no talk at all about dynamics which started this whole conversation. And no, dynamics are not just getting a clean sound by lowering your volume on the guitar. Dynamics are time based transients a lot faster than the time it takes to roll down the volume of your guitar.

That just tells us that not everyone really understands what they're talking about. Be it someone working for FAS or not. A simple way of explaining this so everyone understands me is: I can match EQ me screaming to have the same EQ balance as a guitar amp and post a graph like that but I'm 100% sure people are able to tell which is which because it will not make me sound like a guitar. EQ is not everything.

This is why I assumed the "difference" might be because of dynamics that the IR is not able to capture or the amp sim not being that accurate with shorter transients or maybe both.

I think any thread discussing "do you hear a difference" is naturally going to at least touch on the spectra? Even if that wasn't your main point.

By dynamics I'm assuming you are talking specifically about the attack transients? (and not about note sustain or note release envelopes)

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

Agreed. Perhaps you haven't read what I have written....or what you have written for that matter.

Well at least I'm not going off topic by f.ex. insulting you which I'm fully capable of doing in a subversive way. I've been known to do that in the past but IMHO that would be admitting that you're losing the arguement and are trying to turn the focus away from what really matters. I don't know if this conversation is about pride and not giving up the debate or something now but I have given factual proof on the subject and in return you give me just an opinion of what you think about me which has nothing to do with the topic.

I feel like you're misunderstanding my point maybe even on purpose. What I'm trying to say is: "I've noticed a difference that I think could be fixed to once again reduce the gap between Axe-Fx and real amps." but for some reason you're reading it like this: "The Axe-Fx is a piece of shit modeler and it will never sound like real amps." or "I'm the reason anything is good in the Axe-Fx". If that really is what you think I'm saying then you've got it wrong. I can easily kill many real amp clips with the Axe-Fx with my geekery.

You just can't change facts with opinions.

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

I think any thread discussing "do you hear a difference" is naturally going to at least touch on the spectra? Even if that wasn't your main point.

By dynamics I'm assuming you are talking specifically about the attack transients? (and not about note sustain or note release envelopes)

Exactly. I'm talking about "short transients" so not sustain which would be longer just like showing that the Axe-Fx works like a real amp by lowering the volume on your guitar. So basically "attack". And for two reasons: 1) IR has a different type of attack than a real cab and 2) that explosive attack in your face thing on the amp side which is more or less a feel thing.

Is there a latency difference between the Axe-Fx and a real amp rig setup? Because if there is more latency then that might also be a reason for the feel difference.