Do we really want an Axe FX VST?

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Hi guys, long-time-lurker here

There's a lot of hoo-ha on the forums lately surrounding Amp Modelling VSTs, namely due to the arrival of Line6 Helix native. A lot of people have expressed interest in Fractal releasing an 'Axe FX' VST - a request that dates back several years now.

My question is, do we really want an Axe FX VST?

The main justifications seen for an Axe VST are rooted in matters of 'convenience';

- Easier Re-amping
- Easier Recall in DAW projects
- Cheaper admission price to Fractal's renowned algorithms

These points are clearly in the favour of the few who might benefit specifically from these things but what of the user base at large; what of Fractal as a company in the long term?


Line6 like to go for low-hanging-fruit which is certainly in keeping with their business model and they are very successful at it. Their roll out of the Helix range was executed like a game of chess:

- Flagship Helix floorboard- The most expensive modelling product in Line6 history, (whose price point was likely only enabled by Fractal's existence and rearrangement of the industry) is still cheaper than the Axe FX and occupies a great spot to provide prospective Axe FX buyers with a lower priced alternative.

- Helix LT- A Helix minus all the bells and whistles at a much lower price (which perhaps sheds some light on exactly how much those bells and whistles actually cost?). For people who can't stretch to the higher priced Helix model/ Axe FX

-Helix Native- Aimed predominantly at 'Home-Gamers' and those adamant that good recordings can't be made without a convenient Native Reamping solution. Minus the Plugin development costs, is this the reflective cost of Line6 modelling algorithms? Or have they taken a page from the Apple playbook - Price competitively and go for volume? Either way, this is clearly a very accessible option for most people and therein lies the problem… Staying competitive in the domain of the low-price-point mass-market.

It can be read on this forum and other places that the birth of Fractal Audio Systems came with many sacrifices. I hope Cliff won't mind me repeating that it was necessary for him to spend his life savings in order to get the Axe FX off the ground. In the following decade a relentless amount of work and dedication has been poured into this product in the pursuit of Quality.

Fractal has established itself as the prestige brand above all other modelling tech solutions. This prestige was earned through commitment to high quality products and high quality service. Great displays of loyalty have been shown over the years as a direct result of this, and here FAS has no equal.

The release of an "Axe FX" plugin from Fractal would be a huge change of trajectory and would require strong commitment and dedication to support, possibly at the expense of future Hardware development. People seem to expect a massive discount on the hypothetical FAS VST, despite what people say on these forums the reality is likely that the market will not bear a high asking price on such a product. So will FAS sell themselves short to remain competitive with Helix? Followed by spreading themselves too thin? The support for this alone could be a potential nightmare with incompatibility issues, latency problems, poor setup, unrealistic expectations, reluctance to read product manuals etc. FAS HQ would likely turn into a call centre for support, with Cliff et al sporting headsets and the like.

Firmware updates have been enjoyed for free by many over the years; how would this fit with VST development? Also free? Start charging across the board?

So how does a VST look now?:

-Fractal could no longer guarantee high quality performance on every users computer and have to take shortcuts in the execution of signal processing, thus diluting their business philosophies and taking the company away from its roots?

- With the option to acquire a plugin in the guise of the Axe Fx, hardware sales must surely drop off as most people no longer see the need for high-priced hardware and refuse to spend that much- impetus removed. Subsequent hardware development is deemed obsolete?

- At that point, being predominantly sustained by software sales, Fractal becomes just another software company, wot makez appz for yer diddly-bo?

These are just questions.

IMO a full Axe FX as a plugin is the last thing Fractal should be concerned with. NASA do not concern themselves with Economically designed cars for City dwellers, they leave that to Hyundai.
Fractal make high quality professional Guitar equipment, Line6 gather up whatever is underneath. It works for all parties. Turning the Axe Fx into a plugin takes away half of the equation that made it great- the hardware design spec. I haven't even touched on piracy here.

To guarantee the quality by utilising an external DSP box to run a plugin as in the UAD Satellite, with just a Guitar input must surely fulfill the requirements of plugin convenience, while providing Fractal with a stronghold on hardware spec? …or are we then essentially just back at the Axe Fx?





TL;DR
Fractal shouldn't dance to Line6's tune. To Standout you shouldn't Sell out. No full Axe Fx plugin.
 
This post makes zero sense. If you don't need it, then fine. But I run a studio here and having a vst axe fx would save me a lot of time. A lot of people here have studios too. Also, an axe plugin has been requested before the helix even existed. Line 6 has nothing to do with it. But yes, Fractal might be losing studio customers to the helix native. Especially with the bass offering.
 
Me personally? No.

But there is some appetite here for it. But IMO, Fractal is about putting out the best product, not about making sure that they have a reach into every market. I can see the arguments on both sides, but again IMO, these things get hacked (they ALWAYS get hacked), and then it's copywrite infringement whack-a-mole with those companies with high legal walls (i.e. lots of expensive Jurisprudence types with huge retainers) who would take those ideas into their products. IMO.
 
This post makes zero sense. If you don't need it, then fine. But I run a studio here and having a vst axe fx would save me a lot of time. A lot of people here have studios too. Also, an axe plugin has been requested before the helix even existed. Line 6 has nothing to do with it. But yes, Fractal might be losing studio customers to the helix native. Especially with the bass offering.

Fair point about saving time. There are obvious advantages to a plugin in a pro studio setting, but to be fair- it's not studio owners that I think will cause the problems.

Imagine when untold thousands of Joe Public are suddenly able to "affordably" gain access to the state of the art in modelling. You don't think there will also be thousands of confused/annoyed/entitled users with tech support requests to follow with it? FAS will need a call centre dedicated to tech support, which means rapid expansion, no? You think software revenue will cover the new overheads?

You cant deny that there's more pressure being applied for a Axe plugin since Helix native just dropped.
 
Exactly. Leave it up to end users to choose computer input hardware and plenty of people will cheap out where they can, then complain that "Axe Native sucks, whats all this 10 years of hype about?"
It's a slippery slope.
 
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That other company has certainly opened the proverbial Pandora's Box with their plug-in release.

Now every person with a computer can download the trial, and compare for themselves.

Previously, their competition with Helix was FAS, Kemper, Avid/Headrush, Atomic, BOSS, Zoom, maybe Bias (although their hw head is a joke IMO) and DVMark/bass - now their competition includes IK, Native Instruments, Universal Audio, Softube, Scuffham, Overloud, etc.

I think they kind of hit a sweet spot with the Helix LT - at $800 discounted US it certainly competes favorably in bang-for-buck/value vs the rest of the market. But at $400 for the plugin (assuming you don't get a discount from their hw), they are at the high end shared by UA and probably won't get cut slack on modeling quality like the LT would (being $500 less than an AX-8).

And all that said, I think it would be far more profitable for FAS to start supporting bassists than it would be for them to spend resources on a plug-in. I know I could sell a dozen AX-8s to friends if FAS finally got serious about adding some bass stuff. I definitely couldn't help sell even half-dozen FAS plug-ins.
 
I was under the impression from past Fractal posts that a prototype Axe plugin was already developed. I have to believe that copy protection is at the top of the concern list. Anything can be cracked. Even dongled software. The only way to keep an Axe plugin off Pirate Bay is to not release one.
 
I was under the impression from past Fractal posts that a prototype Axe plugin was already developed. I have to believe that copy protection is at the top of the concern list. Anything can be cracked. Even dongled software. The only way to keep an Axe plugin off Pirate Bay is to not release one.
That also guarantees zero sales.

And have CabLab and the reverb plugin been cracked?
 
In other words, you have avoided the only issue that matters :). Seriously though, the decision about whether or not Fractal Audio ever sells an AxeFX plugin will likely hinge almost entirely on that one issue.

It's a guess, but I agree. I believe Fractal has been in a position to release a plugin for a long time now. Cliff has mentioned his testing of it on a PC. IIRC, it required an i7. If a full-blown plugin hasn't been developed, it isn't for lack of their ability to do so. They've chosen not to offer one for a reason. Piracy of code that only your hardware platform can currently run is a big reason. Another might be the requirement for a powerful computer that would turn off many potential customers. Can't say anything for sure, other than they could have released one a long time ago if they had no concerns.

Bottom line for me is latency. Running a 4.3 GHz i7 with native ASIO drivers for my interface, I still have objectionable latency on my virtual instruments triggered from a keyboard or drum pads. And I've fine tuned the hell out of the system.
 
Fractal shouldn't dance to Line6's tune. To Standout you shouldn't Sell out. No full Axe Fx plugin.
Let me quote Cliff from the book "Tone Wizards":

The future will be about apps more than hardware. I think the smart companies are the ones that are starting to get into app development now. This has been a trend in other areas where everything moves toward more general-purpose computing devices with custom software on them. Look at smart phones; they are all pretty much the same. They either run iOS or they run Android. One benefit of this shift is that it actually simplifies the developer’s job. He doesn’t have to develop hardware anymore. All he has to do is write software.
 
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Please forgive the repeat post, but I wanted to bring it up again so the idea doesn't get lost.

I know I'm certainly not the first one to suggest this, but I'd rather have a FAS control plugin than an implementation of their amp modeling / effects. Being able to save patch settings, IRs, and routing within my DAW project via a plugin, and then being able to recall them again directly when I load the project... seems like that would be solid gold for anyone doing any kind of recording. It also seems like this would be much less work to implement, and it would lay aside piracy concerns. This has been discussed in other wish list threads, and I think many would find the functionality incredibly useful.
 
for me? i have zero interest in a vst...
btw, the guts of the fractal product is all software...
....finely tuned and guaranteed to perform in its enclosure...

everything is a matter of time and applied resource...if you ask me...i say
continue to perfect and expand the "box" functions and figure out how to process more
audio algorithms even faster...
 
Please forgive the repeat post, but I wanted to bring it up again so the idea doesn't get lost.

I know I'm certainly not the first one to suggest this, but I'd rather have a FAS control plugin than an implementation of their amp modeling / effects. Being able to save patch settings, IRs, and routing within my DAW project via a plugin, and then being able to recall them again directly when I load the project... seems like that would be solid gold for anyone doing any kind of recording. It also seems like this would be much less work to implement, and it would lay aside piracy concerns. This has been discussed in other wish list threads, and I think many would find the functionality incredibly useful.
send a midi command from the daw?
...ok, this i would use all day long
 
Bottom line for me is latency. Running a 4.3 GHz i7 with native ASIO drivers for my interface, I still have objectionable latency on my virtual instruments triggered from a keyboard or drum pads. And I've fine tuned the hell out of the system.

What's your latency?
 
That also guarantees zero sales.

And have CabLab and the reverb plugin been cracked?

I don't think they have been hacked and I don't think I've seen anyone use a hack of POD Farm 2.5 Platinum. I wonder if there's a way that the Axe-Fx II could be used as a dongle, so you'd have to have the Axe-Fx II connected through USB to use the plugin version?

I think the best way to avoid getting software hacked is to sell it super cheap. If FAS came out with a plugin and sold it for $50, I don't think most people would waste their time trying to find a hack or risk installing a virus and would buy it.

I guarantee Helix Native and Superior Drummer 3 will be on Pirate Bay in less than a month after release because they're too expensive for the average hobby musician.

The problem with software is that it becomes worthless when a new version is released, so there's no way to sell it or trade it. We'll be able to sell our Axe-Fx II's when the Axe-Fx III gets released, so it won't be as hard to come up with the $. Even the original Axe-Fx and Ultra still sell for a decent amount. I hardly doubt anyone would be willing to pay even $5 for the original Toontrack Superior Drummer or Line 6 Gear Box even though they still sound decent and many great recordings were made with them and still sound good.

I really wish FAS releases a plugin because it's so time consuming to have to re-amp and I had to buy a sound card with SPDIF, so I could tweak the Axe-Fx II while listening to a mix at the same time. I still use POD Farm 2.5 for demos because it's so convenient but I got it for free when I bought my Line 6 POD X3 Live. Line 6 was actually nice enough to let me transfer my license to my POD Studio UX2 because the POD X3 Live had known issues with the USB port and it had to be used as a dongle for POD Farm to work.
 
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