Do we really want an Axe FX VST?

[GlennO]

Please forgive the repeat post, but I wanted to bring it up again so the idea doesn't get lost.

I know I'm certainly not the first one to suggest this, but I'd rather have a FAS control plugin than an implementation of their amp modeling / effects. Being able to save patch settings, IRs, and routing within my DAW project via a plugin, and then being able to recall them again directly when I load the project... seems like that would be solid gold for anyone doing any kind of recording. It also seems like this would be much less work to implement, and it would lay aside piracy concerns. This has been discussed in other wish list threads, and I think many would find the functionality incredibly useful.

+1000. This deserves to be at the top of the wish list.

 

[steadystate]

What's your latency?

Theoretically it should be about 6ms (256 sample buffer), at least for my audio interface. When triggering a virtual instrument from a keyboard, drum pad, or mouse, it seems more in the ballpark of 10 ms. It isn't much, but it is enough to drive me nuts when playing fast runs, at least, after a while.

If I start fresh, it doesn't seem that bad. But the longer I'm at my workstation and focusing 100% of my attention on the work, the more the gap seems to increase until I can no longer tolerate it. The gap doesn't actually increase. My perception becomes more acute.

I'd love a plugin for reamping, even a control plugin as mentioned in another post. But the super-low latency of the Axe II has spoiled me for real-time performance.

 

[Architect]

In other words, you have avoided the only issue that matters

I completely agree GlennO. I should have clarified- I haven't even touched on piracy because it is the clearly why Axe PC never saw the light of day and piracy has been acknowledged at length on these boards. It's definitely the biggest danger, I agree.

It's Fractals company and they know what they're doing, my post isn't aimed at them. It's aimed at folks that talk like 'Axe Native' is a dead-cert just because Line6 did it with Helix Native.

I'm saying- If FAS were to release a 'Native' plugin it could potentially lead to their eventual ruin, they wouldn't be FAS as we know them now anyway.

 

[lauke-lux]

Personally I don't think there will be any other choice in a few years from now. Nobody will reinvest to develop new audio processors. VST, or similar, is the way to go. Whether I prefer sound hardware or not won't change the issue.

 

[Jason Scott]

Theoretically it should be about 6ms (256 sample buffer), at least for my audio interface.

Which interface are you using? I ask because I'm using a Focusrite Saffire Pro 14 and can run the plugin at a buffer size of 128, which puts me at 3ms. So, if it's an interface issue, the Saffire Pro 14 is pretty economical.

 

[ChristThePhone]

Personally I don't think there will be any other choice in a few years from now. Nobody will reinvest to develop new audio processors. VST, or similar, is the way to go. Whether I prefer sound hardware or not won't change the issue.

There will always be the desire for a stable appliance that provides the ease of use like a real amp. That said it doesn't mean it needs to be anything special from a h/w perspective. Think about it like a PlayStation/X-Box vs a PC to do gaming.

 

[guitarfishbay]

I wonder how many people who don't want the plugin are concerned about the resale value of their hardware unit.

Honestly, the hardware units would still be worth the cost. They're amazing.

But so is time. Time is amazing, and if you need to re-amp a load of guitar parts you can spend a lot of time doing it one at a time or you could load up a plugin and render it out the second you've got the tone dialled, saving you the length of the part x number of parts (this can easily eat up a lot of time in small chunks). Convenience is also amazing because you can have your Axe FX racked up with your gear for your shows, and come home and have your plugin ready for recording and practice at home.

And it could be great for FAS. It's not cheap to buy Fractal gear here in the EU, and there are people that just can't afford it, an AX8 is €1599, almost double the price of a Helix LT at €830.

Now they could buy used - but that's not much use to FAS unless that person then goes on to buy cab packs/FAS software (which there's no obligation to). Ultimately FAS needs to continue to make money to survive as a business and to develop their products. A plugin would let them reach additional markets - the people with less money and who would spend $0 on FAS because the entry price on hardware is too high for them, and the people who mix or record entirely in the box for recall and speed, with both of those factors becoming increasingly important.

It's up to Cliff to do the math, but personally I'd be fine if my h/w unit lost a little resale value because I'd massively benefit from a plugin, and I'd hope FAS did too so they can keep growing and developing.

You can often re-sell plugins anyway, and many companies do upgrade paths for major release upgrades, so usually it's not dead money, and there's always the value of using it while you do own it.

 

[iaresee]

I wonder how many people who don't want the plugin are concerned about the resale value of their hardware unit.

I'll venture an educated guess: few have this concern.

I don't want a plugin because I'd rarely use it. I have no interest in being shackled to my computer. When I do need to record the hardware works perfectly for me. And when I'm done I can turn it off and take those sounds with me to a venue. Bliss.

 

[guitarfishbay]

I'll venture an educated guess: few have this concern.

I don't want a plugin because I'd rarely use it. I have no interest in being shackled to my computer. When I do need to record the hardware works perfectly for me. And when I'm done I can turn it off and take those sounds with me to a venue. Bliss.

If you own the hardware you can take it wherever you like, nobody is arguing that FAS should stop making hardware.

Almost every single recorded album involves a computer these days.

 

[iaresee]

Almost every single recorded album involves a computer these days.

And?

 

[ericar]

100% Agree.

Theoretically it should be about 6ms (256 sample buffer), at least for my audio interface. When triggering a virtual instrument from a keyboard, drum pad, or mouse, it seems more in the ballpark of 10 ms. It isn't much, but it is enough to drive me nuts when playing fast runs, at least, after a while.

If I start fresh, it doesn't seem that bad. But the longer I'm at my workstation and focusing 100% of my attention on the work, the more the gap seems to increase until I can no longer tolerate it. The gap doesn't actually increase. My perception becomes more acute.

I'd love a plugin for reamping, even a control plugin as mentioned in another post. But the super-low latency of the Axe II has spoiled me for real-time performance.

 

[guitarfishbay]

And?

And you specifically stated you had no interest in being shackled to your computer.

I'm just pointing out that basically everyone involved in music production and mixing is, and has no choice but to use a computer.

 

[iaresee]

And you specifically stated you had no interest in being shackled to your computer.

I'm just pointing out that basically everyone involved in music production and mixing is, and has no choice but to use a computer.

Seems tangental to me as a whether someone would want a plugin or hardware. Outboard gear is commonplace in studios still to this day. I suppose if you assume a plugin would cost less than the hardware, and you spent more time at a computer recording, you might hope to save some money by buying the plugin instead of the hardware. But why would you assume the plugin would cost substantially less? You're not paying for the hardware when you buy Kemper or Fractal, you're paying for the algorithms.

A serious studio isn't going to be put off by the Axe-Fx technology being outboard gear if it's a tool they think would be valuable to have.

The only place I see the "I really want a plugin" demand are among the amateur set.

 

[ChristThePhone]

... like AX8 users that can't afford a stationary AxeFx for their home studio

What I like about plug-ins is that I could tweak and store a preset in the project. How do you do that with an AxeFx ?

 

[guitarfishbay]

Seems tangental to me as a whether someone would want a plugin or hardware. Outboard gear is commonplace in studios still to this day. I suppose if you assume a plugin would cost less than the hardware, and you spent more time at a computer recording, you might hope to save some money by buying the plugin instead of the hardware. But why would you assume the plugin would cost substantially less? You're not paying for the hardware when you buy Kemper or Fractal, you're paying for the algorithms.

A serious studio isn't going to be put off by the Axe-Fx technology being outboard gear if it's a tool they think would be valuable to have.

The only place I see the "I really want a plugin" demand are among the amateur set.

Yes you are paying for the hardware, and the warranty support. That's assuming you are buying new. Used units don't make any money for Fractal (unless people then buy Fractal cab packs or software).

For a mixer, a plugin costing the exact same as the hardware would still be cheaper to use, as you could bounce out a whole track within seconds of dialling the tone. Time is money. If you have to sit there and re-amp that takes time with a hardware unit. If the tones are the exact same it's totally preferable to have the plugin in that situation. It also lets you dial in multiple tones at once, prior to printing, assuming your computer is powerful enough. That's nothing to do with being an amateur and everything to do with efficiency, plenty of studio types want to finish work in reasonable time and go home like everyone else with a day job.

 

[guitarfishbay]

... like AX8 users that can't afford a stationary AxeFx for their home studio

What I like about plug-ins is that I could tweak and store a preset in the project. How do you do that with an AxeFx ?

I put the preset number in my channel name in the DAW, e.g. Les Paul 240. I've not run out of patches yet, but I'm on an XL.

 

[ChristThePhone]

I put the preset number in my channel name in the DAW, e.g. Les Paul 240. I've not run out of patches yet, but I'm on an XL.

Lexicon provides plug-ins to better integrate their gear into the DAW. That's something I'd love to see for my AX8.

 

[guitarfishbay]

Lexicon provides plug-ins to better integrate their gear into the DAW. That's something I'd love to see for my AX8.

That's cool. I didn't realise they did that. It'd definitely be useful

 

[zenaxe]

I fully understand the arguments with regard to:

1. Branding and concerns that a software only product could compromise the FAS brand and therefore might not be a good investment of time or resource for them.
2. Intellectual Property protection.

I think if FAS chooses to stay out of that market just for those reasons it would make sense to me. It is their livelihood at stake and I want them to succeed.

And, yeah, a control plugin would be a cool compromise if those are overriding concerns.

The other stuff people are arguing here about whether such a product would be useful or desirable to some other demographic just because it is not to them? Complete nonsense. Really do not even understand why you are trying to convince people they do not want or need something that clearly has a demonstrable market and advantages. Not your thing? Cool. GTFO.

If FAS releases a plug-in it is a day one buy for me under $500. It would probably take me a week to a month @$1k. LOL.

My hardware rig is written in stone at this point. Even if an AFX3 comes out, I'm having trouble even imagining what tech it would have to have to entice me (feel free to blow my preconceptions away Cliff/FAS ) a plugin though? Yes, please.

 

[iaresee]

Yes you are paying for the hardware, and the warranty support. That's assuming you are buying new. Used units don't make any money for Fractal (unless people then buy Fractal cab packs or software).

I assure you, from a business perspective, you're not really paying for the hardware. There's nothing unique or proprietary in the hardware or how it's pieced together in an Axe-Fx or a Kemper unit. The Behringer's of the world could be stamping out equivalent* physical objects very quickly. Why aren't they doing that? Because they don't have the firmware -- that's what you're really paying for when you buy these things. That's what makes then sound glorious and unique to the company. If I was valuing Fractal or Kemper, perhaps to take them public or for a sale, I would be placing near zero value on the hardware. Their value is entirely in the software/firmware IP.

That's what you're paying for.

That's nothing to do with being an amateur and everything to do with efficiency, plenty of studio types want to finish work in reasonable time and go home like everyone else with a day job.

Again, I refer you to the modern studio's love of classic outboard gear -- they have all the same time and use constraints using those and yet PulTec does a very fine business.

Fractal has never built for the amateur in any market they've gone after. I would expect the same approach if they were to go plug-in. I'd expect professional pricing if they do ever produce a plug-in.

Speculating is fun.

* They'd cut corners obviously, but they wouldn't have to if they didn't want to.