Bug? Delay Hold - swell (fixed)

B

Bakerman

Axe-Master
Using delay hold creates a swell taking about 1 second to reach full volume. For times under 1 second this produces lower average loop level due to (I assume) multiple passes through the feedback path which isn't at 100% level yet.

To reproduce: use any delay type, set feedback low/zero (issue reduced if you already have high feedback %), play a chord or send a synth tone & switch on hold. Try with various times like 2000 ms, 1000 ms, 500 ms, 250 ms. The swell will be easier to hear w/ longer times, lower level obvious w/ times below 500 ms.
 
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This is normal.

Delay Hold is done by ramping feedback to 100%. Depending on where the ramp occurs you will get a swell. The delay cannot read your mind or predict the future. It only does what you tell it to do.

I can make the ramp shorter but then instead of a slow swell you'll get an obvious jump in level.
 
Is it possible to implement the Hold function without using regeneration (feedback)? Just keep replaying the delay memory (as a sampler might), no degredation, no ramp time. Perhaps even a touch of overlap or autocorrelation or zero detection at the endpoints to minimize clicks/pops while the loop repeats.

I've had delay units that cut off the input to the delay and just kept replaying the buffer in this manner. That is what I've always considered "Hold".
 
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steadystate said:
Is it possible to implement the Hold function without using regeneration (feedback)? Just keep replaying the delay memory (as a sampler might), no degredation, no ramp time. Perhaps even a touch of overlap or autocorrelation or zero detection at the endpoints to minimize clicks/pops while the loop repeats.

I've had delay units that cut off the input to the delay and just kept replaying the buffer in this manner. That is what I've always considered "Hold".
Click to expand...

And if it works like that which is an old school sampler, could it then just change playback speed if the time were raised or lowered, something like a Digitech PDS8000 or Electro Harmonix 16 second digital delay? The effects you get off an old school delay/sampler that simply speeds or slows playback after sampling are some of my favorite. Very few modern delays do this and I would love if the Axe delay could do it, even if the delay time doesn't go to 8 or 16 seconds.
 
steadystate said:
Is it possible to implement the Hold function without using regeneration (feedback)? Just keep replaying the delay memory (as a sampler might), no degredation, no ramp time. Perhaps even a touch of overlap or autocorrelation or zero detection at the endpoints to minimize clicks/pops while the loop repeats.

I've had delay units that cut off the input to the delay and just kept replaying the buffer in this manner. That is what I've always considered "Hold".
Click to expand...

That's exactly the same as setting feedback to 100%.
 
Since I haven't tried what the OP is doing, I guess I'm misunderstanding the issue.

Other delay holds I've used don't behave the way the OP describes. I'll give it a go to see what he's talking about.
 
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MikeyB59 said:
And if it works like that which is an old school sampler, could it then just change playback speed if the time were raised or lowered, something like a Digitech PDS8000 or Electro Harmonix 16 second digital delay? The effects you get off an old school delay/sampler that simply speeds or slows playback after sampling are some of my favorite. Very few modern delays do this and I would love if the Axe delay could do it, even if the delay time doesn't go to 8 or 16 seconds.
Click to expand...

I had the Digitech PDS1000, and I assumed that the Hold on the II worked the same way. I never noticed any "ramping" with the PDS. As I've written previously, I haven't yet tried it, but now I am curious to do so.
 
I've just tried the Hold function. It behaves differently than other delay units I've owned. The ramping does not exist in other units, nor does the degeneration of the signal. I like how the Hold on the other units (such as the PDS series) immediately loops whatever is in memory without the ramp, and the fact that the loop will play forever without degrading or fading (while maintaining the ability to change the playback rate with the delay time control). Even the digital mode degrades on the II. The ramping limits the Hold function's usefulness. First World problem to be sure, but still.
 
steadystate said:
I've just tried the Hold function. It behaves differently than other delay units I've owned. The ramping does not exist in other units, nor does the degeneration of the signal. I like how the Hold on the other units (such as the PDS series) immediately loops whatever is in memory without the ramp, and the fact that the loop will play forever without degrading or fading (while maintaining the ability to change the playback rate with the delay time control). Even the digital mode degrades on the II. The ramping limits the Hold function's usefulness. First World problem to be sure, but still.
Click to expand...

Yes exactly. That is what I tried to say in another hold topic too. Somehow the hold function in the Axe II works different than on most other machines like Boss DD3 or the Roland SDE2500. Makes more sense to me if it worked like the other machines as you say.
Also you have to adjust the damping to 1000ms to make longer hold samples (I think 1000ms is the max sample time for the hold because that is max damping time). Damping in the modifier is set to 10ms by default resulting in very short staccato hold loops.

MikeyB59 said:
And if it works like that which is an old school sampler, could it then just change playback speed if the time were raised or lowered, something like a Digitech PDS8000 or Electro Harmonix 16 second digital delay? The effects you get off an old school delay/sampler that simply speeds or slows playback after sampling are some of my favorite. Very few modern delays do this and I would love if the Axe delay could do it, even if the delay time doesn't go to 8 or 16 seconds.
Click to expand...

Yes great idea! the PDS8000 and EHX 16 seconds delay are my favorites too...I guess it is too much to ask that the Axe II delay is going to work like that. It will need a major rework of the delay block.
 
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Bodde said:
Somehow the hold function in the Axe II works different than on most other machines like Boss DD3 or the Roland SDE2500.
Click to expand...

Based on my trials, I also come to this conclusion. Hold on these other units does not seem to be the same as ramping feedback to 100%. Since these other units repeat indefinitely with no degradation, and the contents of the delay memory instantly loop with no volume aberrations, it seems that they do not use feedback to achieve Hold. I also prefer the Boss/Roland/Digitech style of Hold.
 
steadystate said:
Based on my trials, I also come to this conclusion. Hold on these other units does not seem to be the same as ramping feedback to 100%. Since these other units repeat indefinitely with no degradation, and the contents of the delay memory instantly loop with no volume aberrations, it seems that they do not use feedback to achieve Hold. I also prefer the Boss/Roland/Digitech style of Hold.
Click to expand...

I don't understand technically what the difference between a delay-sampler and a delay with feedback to 100%, but it's clear that I, too, prefer the ones that are samplers rather than the infinite feedback style. You have much more clear and creative control with the sampler style. Not that I can't get some cool sounds out of the Axe style, but it seem much less flexible and more unpredictable.
 
I love the idea of delay hold, but I can't get it to work right. It almost always makes a clicking noise in line with the tap tempo, like I have a metronome on. I'm trying to make swells or ambient sounds and have the delay keep going instead of fading. Maybe there is some trick to it, but I haven't figured it out. I was hoping it would be fixed with FW12, but it's not. Any suggestions?
 
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