Combining several Redwirez Mics into a single IR (TUTORIAL)

[javajunkie]

Please don't yell at me for asking, but is it possible to accomplish this with just Sonar 6 Studio and not have to purchase EnergyXT? I already have keFIR loaded in Sonar.

You can download the demo of voxengo's pristine space. The demo drops out briefly every 25 seconds, but you only need a couple of seconds to render.

kefir is free
voxengo boogex is free.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Sean, you quoted me saying I already have keFIR loaded in Sonar, and then told me I can download it for free

Unfortunately perfect space is not on Studio, only Producer.

I'd be eternally grateful (now that you guys made it so I can't stop thinking about it) for any guidance on how to do it. It appears I have all the tools necessary, I just don't know where to begin.

You can route the track to separate buses each bus can have its own instance of kefir. Be careful using stereo IRs they will sound very different collapsed to mono.

That was you can use the wav file the Andrew provided to convert them to IRs

 

[InsideOut]

You can route the track to separate buses each bus can have its own instance of kefir. Be careful using stereo IRs they will sound very different collapsed to mono.

That was you can use the wav file the Andrew provided to convert them to IRs

:idea: It just clicked :idea: That's what the wav file is for

Thanks! You guys rock!

 

[Genghis]

If you guys are still wondering how to do this in SONAR I'm sure there are a few ways, but I used one track that started with the impulse wave that Andrew provided, and then left some blank space before I started recording some noodling around from the Axe-FX with no cab sims (started at measure two or so). Then I routed that track to a main bus with one instance of Perfect Space in it.

I made auxiliary sends from that track for several other busses each of which had it's own instance of Perfect Space. I looped the guitar part while I adjusted my individual levels, then when I was ready to export the impulse I highlighted only the portion containing the impulse click and exported that, trying to get the levels close to 0DB.

I also had to open the exported wave file in Sound Forge to remove a few samples at the beginning of my wave file before I converted it, but it seemed to work like a charm. Any audio editor should allow you zoom in and cut out the blank samples.

I'm sure I'll be spending some more time mixing in different impulses, but I did similar mics to the ones Andrew chose with the addition of an R121 at 3 inches from the cap edge, then mixed the levels until the clip sounded good to my ears.

Thanks again Andrew!

 

[AndrewSimon]

Thanks again Andrew!

You got it!

I wanted to point out some observation I had.
Mixing the IR's while playing by yourself will give you a great "amp in the room" IR
but this IR usually is not best suited for a full mix.
I find that in a full mix you usually don't need the "Room mic" and the "back of amp mic".
I still use the Main and Bright mic to get what I want and also the EQed AIR mic to give it some beef.
But we are just scraching the surface here, I'm sure there are other techniques we did not explore yet.

In any case, the idea of the EQed AIR mic is just great.
Make sure you try it.

 

[mortega76]

Maybe I wasn't paying attention but... Where do we get an EQ'd AIR IR?

Also, I think Jay would frown on such blasphemous usage of IR's to hack um all up and make then as unauthentic as possible...

 

[Genghis]

Maybe I wasn't paying attention but... Where do we get an EQ'd AIR IR?

Also, I think Jay would frown on such blasphemous usage of IR's to hack um all up and make then as unauthentic as possible...

Not really sure what Jay would think, but to me it's not making it unauthentic... it's basically like mixing several different mics on the same cabinet without having to worry about phasing issues. It took some experimentation, but I'm very happy with the results.

 

[kev]

I wanted to point out some observation I had.
Mixing the IR's while playing by yourself will give you a great "amp in the room" IR
but this IR usually is not best suited for a full mix.
I find that in a full mix you usually don't need the "Room mic" and the "back of amp mic".
I still use the Main and Bright mic to get what I want and also the EQed AIR mic to give it some beef.
But we are just scraching the surface here, I'm sure there are other techniques we did not explore yet.

In any case, the idea of the EQed AIR mic is just great.
Make sure you try it.

So true.
So many classic and great guitar recordings were made with a single sm57 pushed right up against the grill.

 

[AndrewSimon]

Maybe I wasn't paying attention but... Where do we get an EQ'd AIR IR?

You will create it.
The idea is to have a mic close to the edge of the cone that will capture some
of the "air" that gets "missed" by the mic that's close center on the cap.

I did not invent this.
This is a studio technique used since the 60's.
I have read about it on the net.

 

[mortega76]

I have read about it on the net.

well if you read it on the net then it must be true...

So then multiple mic/cab setup (same as the big boys do) is the EQ'd AIR IR... Not a very intuative name... Might as well call it 'supercalifragilisticexpialidocious' IR... That would at least tell me that the IR would make me take a teaspoon of sugar to help the medicine go down...

 

[InsideOut]

well if you read it on the net then it must be true...

In this case, yes :lol:

I've done a fair amount of study on mic'ing cabs etc as well. It is pretty wide-spread knowledge that many recording engineers are using multiple mic's in various positions around the cab. I read an interview with John Petrucci that he uses up to 5 mics including one behind his cab. The process talked about in this thread may not be for everyone, but it's pretty cool that it's become an option if you want it. Thanks again to Andrew for bringing it up.

 

[mortega76]

well if you read it on the net then it must be true...

In this case, yes :lol:

I've done a fair amount of study on mic'ing cabs etc as well. It is pretty wide-spread knowledge that many recording engineers are using multiple mic's in various positions around the cab. I read an interview with John Petrucci that he uses up to 5 mics including one behind his cab. The process talked about in this thread may not be for everyone, but it's pretty cool that it's become an option if you want it. Thanks again to Andrew for bringing it up.

I'm just kidding with ya... I have no clue what's going on when it comes to IR's... I always thought it was what my remote control uses to talk to my TV...

 

[kev]

I've done a fair amount of study on mic'ing cabs etc as well. It is pretty wide-spread knowledge that many recording engineers are using multiple mic's in various positions around the cab. I read an interview with John Petrucci that he uses up to 5 mics including one behind his cab. The process talked about in this thread may not be for everyone, but it's pretty cool that it's become an option if you want it. Thanks again to Andrew for bringing it up.

Most good engineers will use multiple mics, especially in a good sounding room. It doesn't mean they always get used in the mix though. Could be only one gets used or maybe a tiny bit of a second or third gets used. Whatever the mix/song calls for. Yeah, it's nice to have the options.

 

[GuitarDojo]

@ Jay

Your take on this....... :?:

 

[Scott Peterson]

Just a question, how many here have recorded in a pro studio?

It seems to me that many have not; this stuff isn't rocket science by any stretch. In the tutorial section of the Red Wirez site, he breaks down the same process every engineer I've worked with does.

You start with your 'go to' setup and simply move the mics, audition, move the mics, audition till you get it right.

So rolling through the process with these IR's are the same exact process.

Here's a pic from me a few years back from my home studio to sort of illustrate the result:

You simply approach the Redwirez IR's the same way.

Though with Andrew's approach, you can mix/match things with a LOT more variety *if you want*. You do not have to.

The key is having a goal before you start. If you know what you want to hear, the task is merely the path to get there. If you are just throwing up IR's willy-nilly looking for some magic, you ain't gonna find it.

This is akin to picking up a guitar for the first time and just putting your fingers willy-nilly on the strings and strumming. You need to go through the process to learn how to play.

Same thing with the IR's.

 

[Peter Hundley]

The key is having a goal before you start.

You can't make this point enough...........I think a lot of guys are just hoping for someone to tell them what works (as if you can tell anyone what is going to work for them) so that they can follow the steps and do it............but it isn't that easy. You have to know what you're trying to achieve in the first place. I must agree with you Scott, it seems that there may not be a lot of recording experience here, and further more there may really not be much live experience either, and the truth of the matter is that there are tons of guys who play live a lot and still don't know anything about mic'ing their amp, they just let the sound guy do it.

There are tons of IRs out there and if you don't have some sense of what you're trying to achieve then you will spend forever and never get anywhere. Even just limiting it to the Redwirez IRs is a massive undertaking if you don't know what results you are trying to achieve.

For me personally I know what speakers I like for certain sounds, I know what mics I like on the speakers, I know what to expect when I use certain mics and speakers............I'm not just fishing in the huge pool of IRs hoping that something magical will happen.

You need to have an end goal (a more specific goal than "I want it to sound good") and a reasonable plan for achieving that goal. Unfortunately nobody can tell you what will sound good to your ears or what will work well within the context of your band and the music that you make..........we all need to learn that for ourselves.

p

 

[Jay Mitchell]

@ Jay

Your take on this....... :?:

Scott has laid out what is common practice (which is not automatically best practice, BTW) in recording studios. If that practice is the one you're interested in emulating - with the goal of arriving at a desired guitar sound, as opposed to creating the most accurate replica possible of what the amp/cab sounds like to the player, then mixing and matching IRs is as good a tool as any. As Scott makes clear, you'd better know enough about what you want and what you're doing to a) have a methodical plan for finding your sound and b) recognizing it when you hear it. Otherwise, you're on the event horizon of yet another black hole, and it may be many millenia before you emerge in another universe on the other side.

My personal take is that the Axe-Fx has removed all necessity to compromise and accept the unrealistiuc colorations that close-mic'ing adds to a guitar sound. If I can identify a cab that I like, I can produce that exact sound, as I hear it, directly from the Axe-Fx outputs. I prefer this approach, but that is obviously a personal choice.

 

[javajunkie]

[quote="Scott Peterson":2g7ftc8w]
The key is having a goal before you start.

You can't make this point enough...........I think a lot of guys are just hoping for someone to tell them what works (as if you can tell anyone what is going to work for them) so that they can follow the steps and do it............but it isn't that easy. You have to know what you're trying to achieve in the first place. I must agree with you Scott, it seems that there may not be a lot of recording experience here, and further more there may really not be much live experience either, and the truth of the matter is that there are tons of guys who play live a lot and still don't know anything about mic'ing their amp, they just let the sound guy do it.

There are tons of IRs out there and if you don't have some sense of what you're trying to achieve then you will spend forever and never get anywhere. Even just limiting it to the Redwirez IRs is a massive undertaking if you don't know what results you are trying to achieve.

For me personally I know what speakers I like for certain sounds, I know what mics I like on the speakers, I know what to expect when I use certain mics and speakers............I'm not just fishing in the huge pool of IRs hoping that something magical will happen.

You need to have an end goal (a more specific goal than "I want it to sound good") and a reasonable plan for achieving that goal. Unfortunately nobody can tell you what will sound good to your ears or what will work well within the context of your band and the music that you make..........we all need to learn that for ourselves.

p[/quote:2g7ftc8w]

True. But experimenting and reading up on what others have done can help someone start to hone in on what they are trying to achieve. Nothing wrong with good 'ole experimentation. For example, Scott made a discovery he like with IRs entirely by accident. However, there is a time and place for that. When you are paying for studio time or are under tight time constraints(arghhhh), it probably isn't the best time for that.

On the other hand, you have probably learned which speakers. mics, etc you like by actually trying bunches and experimenting. Now that you have that experience behind you, it is easier to get what you are looking for in a much shorter time. I know I have.

Now, that doesn't mean you have to use a haphazard willie nillie approach to experimenting. There are basics principles you can use (the Redwirez site does a good job of stating many of those). While I absolutely agree it is most beneficial to have an end game in plan, I think is important to not get too ridged. Serendipity can be the mother of a lot of great creative moments. It is just probably not good to rely on

But like you said, one person's magic bullets is another smelly turd :lol:

 

[GuitarDojo]

But like you said, one person's magic bullets is another smelly turd :lol:

:lol: and sometimes it cant be polished!

 

[Peter Hundley]

[quote="Scott Peterson":11g0ttn6]
The key is having a goal before you start.

You can't make this point enough...........I think a lot of guys are just hoping for someone to tell them what works (as if you can tell anyone what is going to work for them) so that they can follow the steps and do it............but it isn't that easy. You have to know what you're trying to achieve in the first place. I must agree with you Scott, it seems that there may not be a lot of recording experience here, and further more there may really not be much live experience either, and the truth of the matter is that there are tons of guys who play live a lot and still don't know anything about mic'ing their amp, they just let the sound guy do it.

There are tons of IRs out there and if you don't have some sense of what you're trying to achieve then you will spend forever and never get anywhere. Even just limiting it to the Redwirez IRs is a massive undertaking if you don't know what results you are trying to achieve.

For me personally I know what speakers I like for certain sounds, I know what mics I like on the speakers, I know what to expect when I use certain mics and speakers............I'm not just fishing in the huge pool of IRs hoping that something magical will happen.

You need to have an end goal (a more specific goal than "I want it to sound good") and a reasonable plan for achieving that goal. Unfortunately nobody can tell you what will sound good to your ears or what will work well within the context of your band and the music that you make..........we all need to learn that for ourselves.

p

True. But experimenting and reading up on what others have done can help someone start to hone in on what they are trying to achieve. Nothing wrong with good 'ole experimentation. For example, Scott made a discovery he like with IRs entirely by accident. However, there is a time and place for that. When you are paying for studio time or are under tight time constraints(arghhhh), it probably isn't the best time for that.

On the other hand, you have probably learned which speakers. mics, etc you like by actually trying bunches and experimenting. Now that you have that experience behind you, it is easier to get what you are looking for in a much shorter time. I know I have.

Now, that doesn't mean you have to use a haphazard willie nillie approach to experimenting. There are basics principles you can use (the Redwirez site does a good job of stating many of those). While I absolutely agree it is most beneficial to have an end game in plan, I think is important to not get too ridged. Serendipity can be the mother of a lot of great creative moments. It is just probably not good to rely on

But like you said, one person's magic bullets is another smelly turd :lol:[/quote:11g0ttn6]

Totally agree with all that. You have to experiment (at least to some extent) to learn..........it's hard to know what you like when you haven't tried some things............I just get the impression sometimes that there are a lot of people who want to be given some magic formula for having a good guitar sound. The problem there of course is that there is no formula..........it depends on what you like, what kind of songs you're performing, what kind of band you're in, what the other instruments in your band sound like, etc.....

There are sooooooooooo many ways to go about getting your sound as a player, you can truly get lost trying to figure it out if you don't have a sound in mind and a plan for getting that sound. The tutorial given at the start of this thread is great for that type of sound, I think it's a fantastic idea...........but obviously not the only idea (Jay for instance clearly has a very different view of what his ideal guitar sound is). So I would encourage people to experiment and try things...........the AxeFx offers the user many ways to try many different approaches with relative ease..........but I would also encourage people to have some sort of idea as to what they are actually trying to achieve before they set out on this adventure, otherwise you will surely get lost.

p

 

[VegaBaby]

Scott has laid out what is common practice (which is not automatically best practice, BTW) in recording studios. If that practice is the one you're interested in emulating - with the goal of arriving at a desired guitar sound, as opposed to creating the most accurate replica possible of what the amp/cab sounds like to the player, then mixing and matching IRs is as good a tool as any. As Scott makes clear, you'd better know enough about what you want and what you're doing to a) have a methodical plan for finding your sound and b) recognizing it when you hear it. Otherwise, you're on the event horizon of yet another black hole, and it may be many millenia before you emerge in another universe on the other side.

My personal take is that the Axe-Fx has removed all necessity to compromise and accept the unrealistiuc colorations that close-mic'ing adds to a guitar sound. If I can identify a cab that I like, I can produce that exact sound, as I hear it, directly from the Axe-Fx outputs. I prefer this approach, but that is obviously a personal choice.

I absolutely agree. I've played on 30+ released albums and worked with quite a few well regarded producers and engineers. I've pretty much seen the wildest mic'ing techniques where we had like 8 mics spread around the room, cabs put in sound proofen tunnels with something like 10 different mics in it and on the other hand I've used the simplest of all...just 1 mic in the right spot.

For someone like me with a slight touch of ocd, just knowing that if I can move one slider on the console and bring one mic up and make everything better, but haven't actually tried it can almost drive me mad.

Funny enough, imho, the best results I've heard were with one mic in the right position and maybe one room mic to bring in in the mix. At some point, even if the idea of so many different mics is great, usually the simplest thing wins. I actually played a production where they set up guitar sounds for about a week (!) then we played all of the guitars. When we were finished the producer 'just for fun' tried a different placement and combination he had probably dreamt up the night before and...we actually erased everything and had to play again. I'm sure if money wouldn't have become tighter at this point, we could have gone a couple of times through that exact same scenario...