Classic signal chain vs the Axe-Fx approach

There is virtually no audible difference (to the quality of the reverb and delay sound) between the methods of a real amp with the classic effects chain (especially considering the usual tone squash that ocurrs in real amp FX Loops) and the way it's done in the AxeFX.
 
Found it. Here's the other old thread I was thinking of along with the one I posted above. I remember reading this thread when I first got my Axe-Fx II Mark I and it has a lot of good info and wishes.

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/50217-disable-preamp-amp-block.html#post648712


Not sure if it's possible but it would be cool if we could select different power amps in the amp block and have a way to disable the preamp or maybe Cliff could write up a new Cliff's Notes / Tech Notes and describe how to program Amp Block settings to simulate different Power Amps and give some example settings. I have to admit, I still love plugging my Axe-Fx II into my Mesa Boogie 290 into regular guitar cabs or FRFR cabs and wish I could figure out how to get that magic going straight from my Axe-Fx II to my powered Yamaha DXR12 FRFR cabs. I also wish I knew how to add some grit or dirt post FX like on reverb and delays like the way some real tube amp FX Loops do.


I know Cliff has said in the past he couldn't create a separate PowerAmp Block bc then the competitors could easily reverse engineer his code. Are there really that many competitors that want to make something like the Axe-Fx II, stand behind it, listen to majority of their customers requests, fix bugs in minutes, read their forums, use quality components, use 2 top of the line CPU's, add tons of free stuff, have great support, won't release new products unless they meet the highest standards... the list goes on and on. If a competitor really wanted to copy the Axe-Fx II, they could have come up with something close buy now and added a bunch of marketing bells and whistles like 4 CPU's, a million presets, a million IR slots, lower price.... A good example is Line 6 POD vs FAS Axe-Fx and FAMC LF+ vs RJM Mastermind GT. The Line 6 POD came out 1st and I'm pretty sure the FAMC LF+ came out 1st but tons of people are buying the more expensive FAS Axe-Fx and RJM Mastermind GT bc FAS and RJM, stand behind their products and provide great customer satisfaction. OK done ranting ;)
 
I'm a big believer of good delay attacking the front of the amp! Nice and aggressive. Of course it's not for everyone and everything, and you have to play in consequence.
Just to say, I do not think there is any ideal as to where the effects go. That's like telling Hendrix that the ideal way to play would be to play a left-hand guitar. :)

In axe fx the effects after amp (before or after cab is pretty similar) sound more like studio effects (=after tracking) than in the loop of an amp, but it's the most similar result that you're gonna find in there. It sounds good, just a little more "produced". Sometimes feels a bit strange out of a real cabinet I find, but direct it def does the job.
 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
There isn't any difference with a reverb or similar block before or after the Cab block, unless the Drive parameter in the Cab block is used.
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Never tried to put a delay or reverb between Amp and Cab block but I sometimes place a Pitch shifter block between Amp and Cab block and there is definitely a difference in sound. But maybe it works different with a pitch shifter as opposed to delay and reverb (?). Have to try this.
 
GreatGreen said:
The one part of all this I disagree with is the Mesa Mark series EQ sections. The EQ in that case should be able to be placed between the preamp and poweramp because the curve of the graphic EQ will affect how the power tubes distort. Ridiculous amounts of bass and nothing else will distort differently than ridiculous amounts of treble and nothing else.
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That's the question I was trying to get an answer to the other day. The wiki and the manual pages it references appear to be in contradiction with each other. http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...ii-firmware-18-08-released-2.html#post1188134
 
With two amp blocks and the ability to defeat PA modeling available, I wonder if there's a way FAS could protect their code and have a preamp-defeat switch rather than a separate PA block?
 
Rotti said:
With two amp blocks and the ability to defeat PA modeling available, I wonder if there's a way FAS could protect their code and have a preamp-defeat switch rather than a separate PA block?
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Seems like lots of effort for something that doesn't produce a noticeably different effect and was really more of a compromise than an ideal routing in real life amps.

Sometimes I wouldn't want to be Cliff because it feels like you can just never please people. Last week it was comment after comment about the preamp tube options and how we needed more options back, now this week its that we can't put an effect between the pre and PA, next week it will be that there isn't an option to simulate a slightly weak 9v battery in a drive pedal.

Nothing wrong with sharing wishes mind you, but sometimes instead of thinking about the literally 100's of features that have been included in this amazing box we seem to try to find that one thing it doesn't do
 
lqdsnddist said:
Seems like lots of effort for something that doesn't produce a noticeably different effect and was really more of a compromise than an ideal routing in real life amps.

Sometimes I wouldn't want to be Cliff because it feels like you can just never please people. Last week it was comment after comment about the preamp tube options and how we needed more options back, now this week its that we can't put an effect between the pre and PA, next week it will be that there isn't an option to simulate a slightly weak 9v battery in a drive pedal.

Nothing wrong with sharing wishes mind you, but sometimes instead of thinking about the literally 100's of features that have been included in this amazing box we seem to try to find that one thing it doesn't do
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Completely agree, just thought I'd pitch in an idea is all.
 
NatKingAlford said:
Lol are you just saying things without having tried it, or do your ears not work? Reverb and other effects will have a difference depending on if it's before or after the Cab block even without the Drive parameter. Go try it.
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http://forum.fractalaudio.com/rigs-routing/17105-amp-frfr-how-route.html

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/rigs-routing/16896-output-1-2-config-question.html

From Cliff:

" It actually doesn't matter for most effects. It the effects are linear, time-invariant (LTI), then the order is irrelevant. If you don't use the cabinet drive then it's LTI. Reverb is LTI. Delay is LTI. Now if you use modulation technically it's not LTI but it is "wide-sense stationary" so you can treat it as LTI. The only blocks that aren't LTI are the stuff that does pitch shifting (time-variant) or distortion (nonlinear)."

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/rigs-routing/17910-cab-sims-only-one-output.html

etc.

Again... Search for "Linear Time Invariant" on this forum.
Or just click the link below.
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/search.php?searchid=5074534
 
Bodde said:
Never tried to put a delay or reverb between Amp and Cab block but I sometimes place a Pitch shifter block between Amp and Cab block and there is definitely a difference in sound. But maybe it works different with a pitch shifter as opposed to delay and reverb (?). Have to try this.
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Evidently pitch shift isn't LTI.
 
This is actually my first post. I need to get more involved in this community as I have an AFX II Mk. II for about 3 months now. My apologies for being too much a lurker and not giving appropriately. But here goes as a start.

Perhaps a reasonable compromise and an interesting wish list item would be a PA Color parameter tied to effect of Power Tube type and Master volume level maybe with a mix control to let some non effected signal through. This could impart some of the "mojo" that some experience in the real world signal path example from the OP.

It may be the case that this increases the CPU load and is found to be unacceptable to most AFX users. Ask not receive not IMHO.

I will put a post into the Wish List for correct placement of further discussion.
 
Try a compressor and an EQ after the post amp FX blocks to simulate the natural compression and filtering the power section would be giving to the FX mix. Most amps with FX loops are master volume amps where the power section is running fairly clean anyway.
 
NatKingAlford said:
Lol are you just saying things without having tried it, or do your ears not work? Reverb and other effects will have a difference depending on if it's before or after the Cab block even without the Drive parameter. Go try it.
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The placement of any linear effect (such as reverb and delay) with respect to the cab block is irrelevant, as long as cab drive is zero. But I'm sure several others have posted this already.

As to the OP, I have, on rare occasion, placed reverb or delay before the amp block to duplicate certain specific sounds. But I would never have need to place any effect between the preamp and power amp.
 
NatKingAlford said:
Lol are you just saying things without having tried it, or do your ears not work? Reverb and other effects will have a difference depending on if it's before or after the Cab block even without the Drive parameter. Go try it.
Click to expand...

yes, i run a site called "Axe-Fx Tutorials" and i make tutorial videos without trying anything... hilarious.

make sure you know what you're talking about before you go on the offensive. now you made yourself look like an idiot.

http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=CAB_block#Cab:_position_of_effects_and_Cab_block

The cab is a linear time invariant effect (unless you add drive) so effects like delay and reverb will sound the same before or after it.
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as for the Pitch block topic, many people find that that the Pitch block is best for harmonies AFTER the Amp block but BEFORE the Cab block. yes, i've tried it.
 
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Interesting question the OP posted.
Trying to think out of the box, I would like to ask the OP a different question.
Have you tried coming out of your amp, then go into your effect units, then into your speakers?
You never know how it will sound.

Actually I have done a lot of trying to understand which effect should go where in the chain and exactly why. Parallel, in series, double loopback?
Then I noted that most of the really good presets do not match my "perfect chain".
I tried fixing them, but then didn't sound as good. And as most things in life, I determined that actually trying something and experimenting was
much more productive my exhaustive mental masturbation.
Medium Spring Reverb or Medium Room Reverb?
Reverb before cab block or after?
There is no correct answer. You try it and find the sound that works best for you.
No matter what preset or chain config, their is a guy on YouTube name "Bergs" that kicks my ass, hard!
I quit worrying about things like the perfect chain, the proper reverb, and now I focus on playing and enjoying all the awesome sounds this unit can make.
I struggle to listen to some of the metal stuff, but we all like something different, and Axe-Fx can do it.
Don't over think. Play!
 
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