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Can the Mic be eliminated by sum and difference?

dumbeat

Inspired
1st: No, it can't.

2nd: why should it. It's not a sound that you should send to a console, because techs are used to mic'd sounds. Also the audience don't knows how AITR sounds. When they hear an AITR sound, they'd say it's off from what they expect.
You could still be after the AITR for your own pleasure at home, but it's not something to play out. Advance and leave AITR behind?
Its like telling a violinist to hear what a violin sounds like on a record while he’s playing. An electric guitar is the guitar plus amp. Further aplification(Microphones, preamps, recording media) is an artifact and a situational need, not the original design. Not a natural part of the instrument. For when you must mic a speaker you must, but why impose additives when they are not needed? Generations of engineers would kill to get a sound where the mic is out of the ecuation and you volunteer it even when not needed?
Solution Is either power amp into guitar cab for the player and its close proximity and a further simulation of what a guitar cab throws out naturally but on an frfr speaker for listeners farthervaway on a PA or Recording.
 
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joegold

Fractal Fanatic
I don't see how by the laws of consumer peasant logic, if you had a virtual power amp distorting the right frequencies, and you had some filtering applied to the signal to make up the measured difference between a V30 and the FRFR driver you're using, how the FRFR driver would not throw the exact same sound that the V30 would, so that when it reaches your ears in the far field (in your listening environment) the FRFR sounds just like the V30.

It would seem to me simpler to isolate the frequency response of a V30 speaker, it only puts out what it puts out...apply that filter to the FRFR, based on whichever driver you're using. Measure both, apply the difference to the FRFR driver. Turns it into a V30.
Companies like H&K and Palmer have been selling filters that take a speaker tap signal and low/high band pass it so that it sounds more like the freq resp of a guitar speaker.
You can do this in the Axe yourself by using a couple of Filter Blocks after the Amp Block.

Does it sound realistic? Not to most players.
Most folks think IRs sound more authentic and are more useful.

There probably ARE ways to make FRFR systems sound more like AITR but they'd probably involve more than one monitor per side (e.g. one back firing FRFR monitor to simulate an open back cab) and would also involve meticulously taken far-field IRs and front and back mic captures of the cab all mixed together.
And it still wouldn't feel exactly the same.
So this would be impractical for most of us.

As for me...
I appear to be addicted to the sound I get when using 1 X 12 open back cabs with EVM-12Ls in them.
I've never been comfortable playing any other way.
I have yet to find a 12L IR that gives me everything that I love about the real cabs so I just use a Matrix and the real cabs on gigs.
I can either have the sound guy mic the cab(s) or I can send him a separate Cab Block feed using the best 12L IR I have that comes closest to what the cabs would sound like mic'd, usually with a 57.
When recording at home or in a studio I have those same options available to me.
 

dumbeat

Inspired
Things that are certain in life; death, taxes and "dumbeat" arguing with the forum in every thread he starts ;)
Ha;) i hear ya. But my arguments are driven by curiousity, not from a fiesty place. I assure you. As you see its never personal. Only on topic. But i take your remark. Thanks and sorry;)
 

RDH

Fractal Fanatic
I recently came up with a solution, so if the only way to capture amp in the room is your ears. I plugged in, cranked the amp, ran a hum buster cable from the console to my butt, didn't work though kept farting and blowing the plug out!!!
 

dumbeat

Inspired
Nope. They take diffferent mics to get some certain flavors that each mic adds and they are happy that the mic adds some mids and highs and cuts some lows because the plain AITR sound is useless in a mix.
It became a color to play with just like a distortion pedal is (only at recording or pa there is no choice). Do you have a distortion pedal on all of your sounds?
 
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∞Fractals

Power User
How many times does it have to be said?

  1. Turn off cabinet modeling
  2. AxeFx into a good SS power amplifier
  3. Plug into a traditional guitar cabinet
  4. Turn it up
 

dumbeat

Inspired
It became a color to play with just like a distortion pedal is. Do you have a distortion pedal on all of your sounds.
What if i want the listeners at hone or over a PA hear what i hear from an amp, as if my amp is in thir room?
Is that the one impossible thing other than landing on mars you figure?
 

666was999

Power User
It became a color to play with just like a distortion pedal is. Do you have a distortion pedal on all of your sounds.
It's apples to oranges. The v30 is also a colour, so what's the point? Do you want to take the cab away to have an uncoloured sound?

The sound of guitars that we know from recordings consists of certain parts and a mic is one part of them. How else came the guitar on tape, when there was no mic? Uncoloured mics exist, Earthworks TC30, but no tech takes it for recirdings. Why is that?
 

dumbeat

Inspired
It's apples to oranges. The v30 is also a colour, so what's the point? Do you want to take the cab away to have an uncoloured sound?

The sound of guitars that we know from recordings consists of certain parts and a mic is one part of them. How else came the guitar on tape, when there was no mic? Uncoloured mics exist, Earthworks TC30, but no tech takes it for recirdings. Why is that?
Ill tell you what i want, even if its impossible this week. Philosophically speaking, since were in modeling land, ultimately id like to have as many "modules" to build with. Which means the least imposed elements at the starting point. Having a translation of the sound of the amp in the room through FRFR is not nearly as imaginary as having 260 different amps and 2000 cabinets and 2 racks full of effects, in a 3U box that weighs under 10lbs was 20 years ago...

So are we arguing about the dream or about my right to dream it?
 
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dumbeat

Inspired
It's apples to oranges. The v30 is also a colour, so what's the point? Do you want to take the cab away to have an uncoloured sound?

The sound of guitars that we know from recordings consists of certain parts and a mic is one part of them. How else came the guitar on tape, when there was no mic? Uncoloured mics exist, Earthworks TC30, but no tech takes it for recirdings. Why is that?
And btw, ive never heard a recording or a PA sound better than a guitar amp, even at low volume, but that’s just me.
 

666was999

Power User
And btw, ive never heard a recording or a PA sound better than a guitar amp, even at low volume, but that’s just me.
Yes, that's just you. No one else in the band cares and the audience doesn't even know.
And even if you think the mic'd sound is too small and trebly, the tech even needs to take even more lows away to make it fit in the mix.

I wonder what would happen if you could send that AITR sound to the desk? The tech would ask for a SM57 simulation to taylor the guitar right.
 

chris

Legend!
Industry standards exist for a reason. We can always try new things. But it’s 2019. Electric guitar is coming up to be 100 years old. Certain things have probably been tried already.

Yet we still put a 57 on a paper cone.
 
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