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Can the Mic be eliminated by sum and difference?

Perdikament

Power User
Different speakers have their own physics. Cliff has even gone to great lengths to modeling their behavior under the stresses of mechanical force. I guess you’d have to measure how a V30 reacts vs an EV12L and so on for each speaker. If that’s even possible. But you still have the problem of the room and YOU. Cause essentially your ears become the microphone in the AITR scenario and you have two of them and they are mobile and everyone’s are different.
 

BillyZeppa

Power User
Then page 7 is where FAS makes an FRFR driver become a hot texas lizard alnico! We need to get to page 7
A 'transforming' speaker in a 'transforming' cab would do the trick. maybe one distant day.
But really, just get two or three various cabs and control the switching between via midi.
Also, those new 'FRFR' in a 4x12 might sound good..
 

yeky83

Power User
Isn't listening to an FRFR in a room IS Far Field listening....? Not sure why the FRFR has to sound like a mic'd cab instead of the cab itself... Is it because the IR capture technique has to involve a mic? Thats why I and several others ask if the Mic filter contribution can not be analyzed and isolated in one technique or another to emulate the speaker behavior without the Mic.
I think these are valid questions and not ones that have been answered.
I'll take a crack at responding...

Most guitar cab IRs are captured with the mic in the speaker's near-field. A near-field response doesn't really behave predictably and does not sound like a far-field response. Even if you could subtract the mic's tone with some kind of a mic filter, it would not turn a near-field guitar cab IR into a far-field IR. So your question about mic filters doesn't really touch the issue you're bringing up. The issue is not the mic, it's that guitar cab IRs are captured in the near-field (and that it contains reflections, but let's not touch that for now.).

So you're probably gonna say, "let's then capture guitar cab IRs in the far-field." Far-field IRs can be captured without the effect of the mic, using calibrated measurement mics which are effectively transparent. So yes, you can make an FRFR reproduce the sound of a cab with far-field IRs. But an FRFR is designed to have an even directivity while a guitar speaker starts beaming above ~2 kHz. This means that even if both cab & FRFR produce the same response on-axis, their off-axis response will be very different and this will cause the room response to sound different. This difference in speaker directivity means an FRFR cannot fully replicate how a guitar cab sounds in a room.

I still do find far-field IRs to be useful though. But there's only a few available online. If you want them, you're going to have to capture your own.
 

James Nash

Inspired
To be authentic, the AITR modeling would also need to replicate the way the tone changes dramatically when you walk around the stage. Personally, I find this "authenticity" to be a big downside to guitar cabs--I want my live tone as consistent as possible.

And while we're being authentic, we definitely need to model the way the amp in the room always sounds too loud wherever the mixing console is located, but too quiet to all your friends up front :)
 

Kamil Kisiel

Power User
We need to capture cabinet responses using completely neutral binaural microphones in different positions in the room. Then for playback you would use headphones and a motion tracking system to find your position relative to a virtual cabinet and adjust the eq accordingly.
 

JoKeR III

Power User
What if i want the listeners at hone or over a PA hear what i hear from an amp, as if my amp is in thir room?
Is that the one impossible thing other than landing on mars you figure?
Seems to be a simple question, right? Even if you used 100 mics placed at different spots on the speaker, around the cabinet and around the room, the sound eventually has to be recorded. Once recorded it is entirely dependent upon the system it's played through. There are variables and nuances that simply cannot be translated through a recording. If the power amp is different than the guitar amp, the sound is going to be different. If the speakers used differ in any way from the original, the sound is going to be altered.

To be perfectly frank, I don't want to hear someone playing just an amp in a room. I enjoy music which usually requires multiple signals be mixed into one. The amp in the room debate is solely for the guitar player. It wasn't until the realization and an understanding that a modeler produces guitar sounds rather than guitar tones or feel that I started enjoying them more and having more success using them.

I would venture to say that 99% of the tones we chase are recorded tones that don't in any way sound the same as being in the same room as the amp. Anymore, live tones are cabs that are mic'd and sent through a PA so you don't hear the actual sound of the amp on the stage either. This being the case and Fractal products, as well as other modelers, geared to live or recording purposes, what is the reason for the amp in the room obsession when it comes to modelers?
 

dumbeat

Inspired
The solution then is probably not IR technology but modeling technology. In other words, take the amp block signal and send to a model of the mechanical behavior of a specific cabinet+its acoustic properties and speaker eq curve and your suppose to have it on your FRFR. If you crave or need a mic sound to go with it, go ahead and add one in a mic block or whatever...
Basically IR's are the Kemper of Cabinets, Which is why many prefer fractal to Kemper to begin with...

As for taste debates, ie what do you prefer to hear a guitar cabinet or a PA after miking and mic amps etc etc, i dont want to go there.
I totally prefer the sound of a guitar cab+ i dont chase sounds of other guitarists on records, i chase a tone that floats my boat, its not a sound i heard on a record, its something that happens when stuff is tuned in a great way and presented in a very coherent way... its personal and acoustic, When i stand in front of a cabinet that sounds great i get high, im here to get high, not to get by..
but its not a thread about taste so lets leave it at that..
 
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dumbeat

Inspired
Why did you buy a modeler and FR monitor?
1. Out of curiosity
2. I love tweaking endlessly
3. Very convenient, and some really great sounds and possibilities.
4. Recording guitars on records i produce and cant use large rigs at my location.

To say its perfect? why? isn't there always room to grow?

If the question was specifically about the FR, well, its not the only means of monitoring+ the size and spl can easily vary, which is a huge plus for me, otherwise i would have sticked to my amps and cabinets but i want the benefits of the Axe without the stuff i like less. ie, loss of directness when using IR's...
 
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yeky83

Power User
The solution then is probably not IR technology but modeling technology. In other words, take the amp block signal and send to a model of the mechanical behavior of a specific cabinet+its acoustic properties and speaker eq curve and your suppose to have it on your FRFR.
Huh? This either makes little sense or I don't understand what you're trying to say.
 
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JoKeR III

Power User
What if i want the listeners at hone or over a PA hear what i hear from an amp, as if my amp is in thir room?
The solution then is probably not IR technology but modeling technology. In other words, take the amp block signal and send to a model of the mechanical behavior of a specific cabinet+its acoustic properties and speaker eq curve and your suppose to have it on your FRFR. If you crave or need a mic sound to go with it, go ahead and add one in a mic block or whatever...
It appears you're asking for two different things. One is a monitor that emulates different cab speakers so the AITR tone is translated to the listener. This would only work if they are listening to guitar only. I would doubt any other instrument would sound the way it should in this scenario.

The second seems to be a modeling cab that is paired with an amp modeler so a person could experience a variety of cab tones with the AITR feel. This seems more feasible and it appears that Line 6 has ventured into this arena with their Powercab.
 

dumbeat

Inspired
Huh? This either makes little sense or I don't understand what you're trying to say.
What im saying is that the Fractal is half modeler(amp section) and half Sampler, like the Kemper(Cabs IR). What i say is employ the same modeling technology for the Cab recreation. The mic element is a necessity at this point because of the sampling., Its not an aesthetic choice. Its only a technical obstacle.
 

dumbeat

Inspired
It appears you're asking for two different things. One is a monitor that emulates different cab speakers so the AITR tone is translated to the listener. This would only work if they are listening to guitar only. I would doubt any other instrument would sound the way it should in this scenario.

The second seems to be a modeling cab that is paired with an amp modeler so a person could experience a variety of cab tones with the AITR feel. This seems more feasible and it appears that Line 6 has ventured into this arena with their Powercab.
Use clean cab when fit and use mic'd cab when fit. Where is the contradiction? there are all kinds of situations.
 
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