Can AxeFx Mimic the VCO sweep function of a Lexicon Prime Time Digital Delay?

EricP1954

EricP1954

Experienced
Hey everyone, I'm looking for any helpful hints to set up on my AxeFx II a pair of parallel delay effect blocks that mimic the Lexicon Prime Time VCO sweep function. Pat Metheny uses this feature to get his clean electric lead guitar chorus sound.

I think that the VCO allows both the pitch and the delay time to modulate at the same time. Pat Metheny has a very slight detune and tunes both units to produce a chorus effect.

Any help in setting up this block configuration would be deeply appreciated.
 
Time and pitch are inextricably related. Change one and you change the other. The VCO sweep function is nothing more than delay time modulation which creates a chorus effect. Use the MOD page of the Delay block.
 
Thanks for the answer! Can a second delay block be set up to run in an exact reverse phase of the other delay block?
 
I'm still after that myself but too lazy to experiment, so please deliver QUICKLY :p
A friend of mine has been after it for 30 years + too.

I think some problems are:
- we have to take Pat's word for the delay times (he mentioned more than 2 figures, though they were close)
- if I'm correct that leaves 4 parameters unknown: rate and depth for the two units (depth would be "very slight" or "low depth and rate" in his words, which seems logical)
- we don't know how the real thing sounds, cos it only happens where he is standing and he has often said he was not able to record it as well as he wished
OTOH, you can put a PM recording to mono and still enjoy that sound, so there is always something to go after :)

Here's another tidbit:
The Gear Page - View Single Post - Pat Metheny On Chorus pedals.. Getting his sound.

+ - - - - - - - -
I think he could also get it with one Prime Time (and one MXR) (same principle but less rich?)

What about acoustic guitar amps? [First Circle period]
Pat: I’ve got two Yamaha G100 preamps, with a Yamaha 300 watt power amp, 2 MXR digital delays, 1 Lexicon PCM 60 digital reverb, 1 model 95 Prime Time II Lexicon, Roland GR-300, Roland GR-700, Synclavier interface and Syndavier digital synthesizer and on the acoustic guitars I use a Lexicon 224X reverb, which is a really great sound.
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"I got to meet Pat in the dressing room after a Pat Metheny Group concert in 1978 in Westport, CT at the Player's Tavern and got to see his old ES175 with the one pickup removed and he let me check it out. I also bought an MXR digital delay after that since I asked him how he got such an ambient airy sound. He used the MXR & a Lexicon tapped delay in a stereo setup with 2 Acoustic amps." [tho the guy may have analysed it wrongly]
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Metheny: The guitar is a Gibson ES-175, a '58, with one humbucking pickup. It goes into an MXR DDL, used essentially in the same way as you'd use an Echoplex - just barely on. That goes into my main amp, which is an Acoustic 134, my favorite amp in the world. So it goes from the preamp to the Acoustic 134 into a new product, a Lexicon Prime Time digital delay, which I had modified slightly so that it's got a sine wave VCO instead of a triangle VCO. Then that splits that signal into two more signals, which are both delayed - into a Peavey amp on one side of the stage and another Peavey on the other side of the stage. So I essentially have three signals aimed at me - the direct signal, one delay at 14 milliseconds, and another delay at 26. The Pat Metheny Group - Jazz's Foremost Garage Band
- - -

Pat Metheny - Jazz Voice of the 80's Guitar Player, December 1981

Could you detail your amp setup?
My main amp is one I've had for about seven years, which I'm totally in love with - an Acoustic 134 with four JBL 10s in it. That's the first stage of the setup. I used to use Peavey amps as secondary amps, but they broke all the time. Now I'm using the new little Yamaha G-100 210, which sounds fantastic. So I go from my guitar into an MXR Digital Delay set for just a little bit of slap echo, then into the Acoustic 134, and from the preamp of the 134 I take a line into the input of the Lexicon Prime Time digital delay. The Lexicon splits it from mono into stereo. One side of the Prime Time, set at 14 milliseconds goes into a Yamaha amp, which then powers another 15" E-V speaker.[forgets to mention the other delay of 26ms?] Those two speakers are spread on either side of the stage, so that I'm kind of in the middle of those and the Acoustic. We also run everything through a Lexicon 224 Digital Reverb at the sound board. We also do the PA in stereo to take advantage of the stereo qualities of my stuff as well as the keyboards and bass, which are also run through individual Lexicon Prime Times.

You don't think it could all be incorporated into a single "Pat Metheny amp"?
No, because the trick is to spread these amps all over the stage. I don't think you could get it from a single source. Sometimes I hear people playing through chorus effects, and I guess they're trying to simulate that sound. But to me, it just doesn't work. It sounds out ot tune.

You don't use any chorus effects in your own setups?
No. To me, the sound I get isn't a chorus sound at all. It's actually modulation happening at different times. With a chorus you do have some modulation going on, but it's basically mono. Even these new stereo chorus units don't make it for me. You've got to spread it out more than that to get that sound.
- - - - - - -

Pat Metheny: Back then, it had to be two different Prime Times because the two different delay sides did not have discrete outputs. In order to spread the sound around the stage, there had to be two units. Now I use a TC electronics stereo box that David Oakes set up to do the exact same thing in a much more efficient way. / All three cabinets have a bit of reverb, so none are really "dry", but only the right and left are time modulated. / Left side 13 ms right side 26 ms both sweeping with a sine wave at a low depth and rate.

_________________

In this vid it seems you can hear the effect channels only(?) for a minute:
Pat Metheny & John Scofield Quartet - You Speak My Language Pt 1 - YouTube
So a serious amount of reverb here (that may have been added on the board)
_________________

There is a multitude of this kind of info to be found and in the end it can always be interpreted slightly differenty w regards in how to set it up, and he probably varied that himself.

Even as a perfectionist, I know that long time ago, I was already pretty happy when I put flatwounds on a very heavy solidbody guitar that I have, get tone and delay somewhat in the neighborhood, and *maybe* a slight chorus (I don't remember).

I have a WDW setup at the moment, so "some day" I hope to do some experiments :)
 
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This is exactly how chorus works. Sweeping delay time mixed with a dry signal. The difference is he is using separate speakers for the delay lines and they are getting mixed in air as opposed to electronically. In person this sounds very wide and rich and much more 3 dimensional than a chorus unit played through a single speaker. It's kind of like the difference between hearing a leslie cabinet in person versus a recording of a leslie cab. Setup and mic'd right, you can get close, but it's never exactly the same.
 
Pat's rig for the airy jazz electric sound is looking like it is based on a Wet-Dry-Wet rig. So the MXR Digital Delay is in front of the rest of the effects. The MXR unit is also used by Eric Johnson and is known for being a great sounding unit. That seems to supply the conventional and subtle delay part of his sound, the other variable is the Lexicon 224 Digital Reverb, post cab.
 
Any chance you can point me at a sample of what this sounds like? This thread piqued my curiosity. Thanks!
 
I had a Yamaha UD Stomp, which provided up to 8 delay lines simultaneously. Getting Metheny tones was no problem whatsoever. Though Metheny said he didn't use chorus, I used modulated delays to get that kind of sound.

I don't have an Axe yet, but I have been very interested in one. I asked whether or not it could do what the UD Stomp could do, and Cliff replied that it could.

Therefore, I think it would be relatively easy. You would simply use multiple delay blocks, panned at different percentages of Left, Right, and Center, and use at least a stereo speaker set-up.
 
speed said:
I had a Yamaha UD Stomp, which provided up to 8 delay lines simultaneously. Getting Metheny tones was no problem whatsoever.
(...) use at least a stereo speaker set-up
Click to expand...
These kind of statements need clips ideally :p
Some people are happy with using a chorus and claim they have Metheny tone. It's just not the same.
With two speakers, Wet / Dry may also be closer and maybe Pat has even used that sometimes.

I asked whether or not it could do what the UD Stomp could do, and Cliff replied that it could.
Click to expand...
Not sure. It would be easier on the UD Stomp though.
I remember at least two things that were not as easy on the Axe: the UD has better precision than in some delay blocks on the Axe, so I couldn't recreate some Holdsworth presets to the millisecond.
The UD also has easy predelay, for which I think the Axe needs workarounds ( MP: You can create the exact effect of pre delay already with the DUAL DELAY and MULTITAPS. > Cliff, 6/2012: The Quad Series delay can do this. )
The UD delay can also have microseconds, I believe? The Axe would need another workaround for that w a compressor block.
 
EricP1954 said:
Thanks for the answer! Can a second delay block be set up to run in an exact reverse phase of the other delay block?
Click to expand...

You don't need a second delay blocks for this, there is a phase reverse parameter in the delay block that can be set to Left, Right, None, or Both.
 
You can also use LFO2 to control one of the channels and set it's phase to 180 degrees. That way when one side goes up, the other side goes down in pitch. Makes for a very wide sounding effect.
 
mr_fender said:
You can also use LFO2 to control one of the channels and set it's phase to 180 degrees. That way when one side goes up, the other side goes down in pitch. Makes for a very wide sounding effect.
Click to expand...

And you can have the feedback positive or negative is a dual delay line.
 
speed said:
I had a Yamaha UD Stomp, which provided up to 8 delay lines simultaneously. Getting Metheny tones was no problem whatsoever. Though Metheny said he didn't use chorus, I used modulated delays to get that kind of sound.

I don't have an Axe yet, but I have been very interested in one. I asked whether or not it could do what the UD Stomp could do, and Cliff replied that it could.

Therefore, I think it would be relatively easy. You would simply use multiple delay blocks, panned at different percentages of Left, Right, and Center, and use at least a stereo speaker set-up.
Click to expand...
I have the MagicStomp, which is a very similar pedal to the UD Stomp. The clean chorus sounds in that unit are more line with Allan Holdsworth's clean sounds, since he was a major contributor toward designing the unit.

Pat's sound is subtly different. His emphasis is on creating a very wide sound image, but without using a straight chorusing effect because he says that they make the guitar sound out of tune. He uses a Wet-Dry-Wet approach with a fairly straightforward middle channel and the modulation on the far ends of the stage. Makes for an interesting signal path to create on the AxeFx.
 
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