Best Power Amp for Modelers

I power 2 112 cabs with EHX 44 Magnums for basement playing (plenty loud for that). Considerations for loudness that I'm aware of are:
  • impedance of cabs determine the wattage realized (i.e. my 8ohm cabs 1/2 the max wattage of my Matrix p.a. at 16ohm load - can't remember re the EHXs).
  • headroom - some of these little amps don't have the hi-headroom one needs in a clean p.a. - my EHXs start to distort with the knob at 10 oclock. This can effectively knock off a bunch more usable wattage.
  • I've always heard tube amps are louder than SS for a given stated wattage, so not sure about the comparisons between SS and tube - I don't know where this commonly held belief comes from though - maybe an old wives tale - I don't know the math on it
  • I'm not sure how well these little amps can maintain high volumes for extended periods - never tested mine but, not sure I'd want to be relying heavily on them.
 
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sprint said:
I power 2 112 cabs with EHX 44 Magnums for basement playing (plenty loud for that). Considerations for loudness that I'm aware of are:
  • impedance of cabs determine the wattage realized (i.e. my 8ohm cabs 1/2 the max wattage of my Matrix p.a. at 16ohm load - can't remember re the EHXs).
  • headroom - some of these little amps don't have the hi-headroom one needs in a clean p.a. - my EHXs start to distort with the knob at 10 oclock. This can effectively knock off a bunch more usable wattage.
  • I've always heard tube amps are louder than SS for a given stated wattage, so not sure about the comparisons between SS and tube - I don't know where this commonly held belief comes from though - maybe an old wives tale - I don't know the math on it
  • I'm not sure how well these little amps can maintain high volumes for extended periods - never tested mine but, not sure I'd want to be relying heavily on them.
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the carvin mach100 claims 50 watts per channel into either 4 or 8 ohms. the ehx 44 magnum claims 44 watts into either 8 or 16 ohms. i think heat dissipation is more of a constraint than max supply voltage for these little amps, which is why they're rated at the same wattage for different loads. at some point max supply voltage does become the constraint though and the maximum power will start to go down inversely proportional to the load.

the headroom thing is a real difference between solid state and tube amps, you can't really push a solid state amp into clipping without it sounding awful, whereas you can push a tube amp way harder and it sounds good. a cranked 100 watt plexi actually puts out closer to 150 watts. this accounts for maybe a 2x difference in effective wattage in an extreme case, which lets you get maybe 3db extra out of a tube amp at the same wattage. i think a bigger factor here is that historically solid state = cheap in the guitar amp world, and cheap amps often have cheap, inefficient speakers. celestion rocket 50's have a sensitivity of 95db whereas blues have a sensitivity of 100db, this is about the same difference in volume as using an amp with 4x more power. i have no doubt that the carvin mach100 pushing two celestion blues would be able to keep up with an ac30, and if you really pushed the mach100 to full power you'd blow the speakers. as someone who used to gig with an ac30, i can say that i have been asked to turn down by the sound guy on more than one occasion, they are very loud amps.

it's a fair point about running them at high volume for an extended period of time, especially in a situation like an outdoor gig in summer in texas. without a fan idk how good they are at dissipating heat. on the other hand, if one of them dies it's not a huge deal because they don't cost that much and you can easily fit two in your guitar case.

SpudMan said:
Still looking at amps: does anyone have experience with the QSC GX3? Is it an FRFR or neutral amp?
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yes that is a neutral amp. all PA amps are going to be neutral. that amp is almost certainly overkill for what it sounds like your needs are, but it's not that expensive, and if you don't plan on moving it around then i guess the weight and size aren't that big of a deal.

SpudMan said:
Looks nice but not really easy to get in the USA. Otherwise they would be an interesting option for sure. Thanks!
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austin guitar house sells them in the USA
 
jeffffff said:
the carvin mach100 claims 50 watts per channel into either 4 or 8 ohms. the ehx 44 magnum claims 44 watts into either 8 or 16 ohms. i think heat dissipation is more of a constraint than max supply voltage for these little amps, which is why they're rated at the same wattage for different loads. at some point max supply voltage does become the constraint though and the maximum power will start to go down inversely proportional to the load.

the headroom thing is a real difference between solid state and tube amps, you can't really push a solid state amp into clipping without it sounding awful, whereas you can push a tube amp way harder and it sounds good. a cranked 100 watt plexi actually puts out closer to 150 watts. this accounts for maybe a 2x difference in effective wattage in an extreme case, which lets you get maybe 3db extra out of a tube amp at the same wattage. i think a bigger factor here is that historically solid state = cheap in the guitar amp world, and cheap amps often have cheap, inefficient speakers. celestion rocket 50's have a sensitivity of 95db whereas blues have a sensitivity of 100db, this is about the same difference in volume as using an amp with 4x more power. i have no doubt that the carvin mach100 pushing two celestion blues would be able to keep up with an ac30, and if you really pushed the mach100 to full power you'd blow the speakers. as someone who used to gig with an ac30, i can say that i have been asked to turn down by the sound guy on more than one occasion, they are very loud amps.

it's a fair point about running them at high volume for an extended period of time, especially in a situation like an outdoor gig in summer in texas. without a fan idk how good they are at dissipating heat. on the other hand, if one of them dies it's not a huge deal because they don't cost that much and you can easily fit two in your guitar case.


yes that is a neutral amp. all PA amps are going to be neutral. that amp is almost certainly overkill for what it sounds like your needs are, but it's not that expensive, and if you don't plan on moving it around then i guess the weight and size aren't that big of a deal.


austin guitar house sells them in the USA
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Thanks on the QSC. True on the overkill. But it is the lowest cost model they have, and I also might want to add new equipment later that requires more power, so that would fit with my goal to purchase things that have longer term use.
 
jeffffff said:
with the F12-X200, you should leave the amp and cab blocks enabled. with a regular guitar speaker you'd want to disable the cab block. if you don't already own the power station and don't need the attenuator functionality, you should look into cheaper/smaller options such as the seymour duncan powerstage 170 or 200.


this would be correct for a regular guitar cab like the mesa you are using, but the F12-X200 that SpudMan is talking about is a coaxial full range speaker, not a normal guitar speaker, and you need to use the cab block with it.
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My bad, I completely missed which cab+speakers he was using. Yes, you are correc to leave the cab block on for those speakers.
 
chumbucket said:
Not bedroom only. It gets very loud. Mine is ran into a stereo 4x12 and can easily keep up with drummers.
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Guess I'll take your word for it.
I was thinking about two points of reference:
  • Mostly people talk about 50W tube amps being loud, way louder than solid state, because they don't sound awful when they clip a bit, and solid state amps usually do.
  • Lots of FRFRs w solid state amps have much higher stated wattage -- Electro-Voice PXM-12MP 700W, Yamaha DXR10 1100W, QSC K12 2000W, even the Headrush FRFR-112 2000W. Not that I believe those numbers really, but still.
 
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Dave Merrill said:
Guess I'll take your word for it.
I was thinking about two points of reference:
  • Mostly people talk about 50W tube amps being loud, way louder than solid state, because they don't sound awful when they clip a bit, and solid state amps usually do.
  • Lots of FRFRs w solid state amps have much higher stated wattage -- Electro-Voice PXM-12MP 700W, Yamaha DXR10 1100W, QSC K12 2000W, even the Headrush FRFR-112 2000W. Not that I believe those numbers really, but still.
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I think in both of those cases inefficient speakers are a bigger factor than tube vs solid state. Quoting my post from further up the thread:

jeffffff said:
the headroom thing is a real difference between solid state and tube amps, you can't really push a solid state amp into clipping without it sounding awful, whereas you can push a tube amp way harder and it sounds good. a cranked 100 watt plexi actually puts out closer to 150 watts. this accounts for maybe a 2x difference in effective wattage in an extreme case, which lets you get maybe 3db extra out of a tube amp at the same wattage. i think a bigger factor here is that historically solid state = cheap in the guitar amp world, and cheap amps often have cheap, inefficient speakers. celestion rocket 50's have a sensitivity of 95db whereas blues have a sensitivity of 100db, this is about the same difference in volume as using an amp with 4x more power. i have no doubt that the carvin mach100 pushing two celestion blues would be able to keep up with an ac30, and if you really pushed the mach100 to full power you'd blow the speakers. as someone who used to gig with an ac30, i can say that i have been asked to turn down by the sound guy on more than one occasion, they are very loud amps.
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In the case of FRFR, low frequency drivers frequently trade off efficiency for flatter low frequency response, but with modern technology they can make up for it with higher power handling and higher wattage amplifiers. Many if not most FRFRs are probably also flattening the frequency response with FIR or IIR filters, which takes a ton of power to do if you want to get flat response down to 80hz (if the speaker is down 10db at 80hz, you need 10x the watts to get it flat).
 
So many options out there under $500.00

-Orange Pedal Baby
-Blackstar Amped 1
-Carvin Mach 100
-Mooer Baby Bomb
-EHX Magnum 44
-H&K Ampman
-Ashdown Newt
-SD Powerstage

I'm currently using a Kartakou Cobblestone which I think is a standard Class D circuit in a nice enclosure, that you could find at less than $30 for the circuit board, which I guess would sound roughly the same as the Mach100 (though the mach is Stereo), Mooer Baby Bomb, EHX Magnum 44. I put the Powerstage at another level because I think it has an IcePower circuit in it and active tone controls. The Orange Pedal Baby sure looks great being Class AB but I haven't heard enough of it and I'm very curious about it. I haven't heard anything about the Ashdown but it sure looks sturdy and has a full EQ. The Ampman sure looks cool but I don't know anything about it and haven't seen modellers plugged into it. Finally the Amped 1, I've beeing reading great things amongst Blackstar's media push and hype train, but the only reviewer that has connected a modeler to it is Leon Todd, and even he didn't talk much about that aspect of it. For the extra features the Amped 1 seems like a winner but I'm mostly interested in the sound. Currently for home use I plug the OUT 2 (no cab sim) thru the Cobblestone to my cab and the OUT 1 (with Cab sim) goes to the stereo Effects Return of an old Trademark 120 in a sort of Dry/Wet Setup for shits and giggles, this setup sounds pretty good at low volume but I'm not hauling 2 cabs to band practice heh.

I guess I'm torn between the Pedal Baby and the Amped 1.
 
Just throwing this out there, and by the way I had the Mach100 before I went Mission Gemini and it was clean...I also had an old Carvin TS-100 that you can find for around $300-$400 on Reverb. It was stereo (50w X 50w) but could be bridged and if I remember correctly you could replace the tubes and even put in one type of tubes in one channel and one type in the other. It's even rack mountable.
I ran a 2X12 EVHIII and a Carvin VX 2X12 and it was good I just wanted to be able to use the cabs in the unit.
I even had a pair of Tech21 Power 60's I used with a PODxt years ago and they were great...I wish I would've kept those just to see what they sound like with AxeFXIII. They come with Celestion Seventy 80's which aren't flat response.
 
stephenclark1 said:
Just throwing this out there, and by the way I had the Mach100 before I went Mission Gemini and it was clean...I also had an old Carvin TS-100 that you can find for around $300-$400 on Reverb. It was stereo (50w X 50w) but could be bridged and if I remember correctly you could replace the tubes and even put in one type of tubes in one channel and one type in the other. It's even rack mountable.
I ran a 2X12 EVHIII and a Carvin VX 2X12 and it was good I just wanted to be able to use the cabs in the unit.
I even had a pair of Tech21 Power 60's I used with a PODxt years ago and they were great...I wish I would've kept those just to see what they sound like with AxeFXIII. They come with Celestion Seventy 80's which aren't flat response.
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I've used my Trademark 120 (it's basically 2 power engine 60s glued together in stereo for this conversation's purposes) to rehearse a few times because of its compact size and weight, it doesn't have the Seventy 80 speakers (bought mine in '04) in it but they are definitely not a traditional guitar speaker as they sound horrible without an IR, which I discovered years ago while trying to use it as a speaker cab for another head hehe; it is a little boomy so I have to adjust Out 1's global EQ accordingly but it doesn't sound half bad, I just love the sound of guitar speakers at decent volume. Which of all of those do you like best, the Gemini?
 
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4lejandro said:
I've used my Trademark 120 (it's basically 2 power engine 60s glued together in stereo for this conversation's purposes) to rehearse a few times because of its compact size and weight, it doesn't have the Seventy 80 speakers (bought mine in '04) in it but they are definitely not a traditional guitar speaker as they sound horrible without an IR, which I discovered years ago while trying to use it as a speaker cab for another head hehe; it is a little boomy so I have to adjust Out 1's global EQ accordingly but it doesn't sound half bad, I just love the sound of guitar speakers at decent volume. Which of all of those do you like best, the Gemini?
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I love the Gemini II. It can give me all the "amp" feel I'll ever need because I'm not on stage. I've got it on a OnStage amp stand which gets it off the floor at about ear level (sitting down) and 10' away from me. I find myself more and more listening to Output 2...which is my Kali LP-8's. Once in a while I'll get both going, balance the volume and let loose, it's glorious.
I'm old enough to get the "amp in the room" thing and feeling the tube sound BUT I'm also old enough that I don't care that much anymore. This will get me in trouble for saying but anytime someone says, "it just doesn't sound like so and so amp" I wonder how many of the 302 amps in the FAS they've actually stood in front of.
 
Yesterday I was playing at low volume through the guitar cab (Out 2) and the effects through my PC Speakers (a pair of Edifiers) vía Out 1 and the sound was great for this application, I just want my amplified sound to play nice with other instruments, and FRFR has not done that in my experience, at rehearsal volume.

I have stood in front of like 5 of the modeled amps LOL, not all of them at high volume. Sitting well in the mix and complimenting the overall band sound is what I'm always after, let it be analog, digital or witchcraft.
 
sprint said:
I power 2 112 cabs with EHX 44 Magnums for basement playing (plenty loud for that). Considerations for loudness that I'm aware of are:

  • I've always heard tube amps are louder than SS for a given stated wattage, so not sure about the comparisons between SS and tube - I don't know where this commonly held belief comes from though - maybe an old wives tale - I don't know the math on it
  • I'm not sure how well these little amps can maintain high volumes for extended periods - never tested mine but, not sure I'd want to be relying heavily on them.
Click to expand...

Nope, tube amps are not louder for a given wattage than solid state for the same specification of THD. HOWEVER

The BIG difference is that tube amps slowly (and naturally) compress the output signal so that you can push it to a louder AVERAGE level without being aware of any issues, as the 2nd harmonic distortion produced at the limit is musically leasing, whereas the solid state amp will just distort badly with all sorts of odd harmonics (and make sure you know it)... so, to make it easier and to avoid all the actual details then yes, tube amps are louder (but they're not)..lol

reliability..
the average output power of any amp is actually very low.. any type of thermal/reliability argument/calculation would always favor the (much more efficient) class D module.. higher MTBF across the board (sic) HOWEVER The exception is that if you are running an amp overloaded at the peaks then
a) For a SS or class D amp you are relying on the circuit design and its protection schemes to save you (while it sounds like bees fighting a firecracker
b) For a tube amp you just crank a tube amp as it will naturally protect itself when overdriven...and sound glorious while doing it.

Having a SS/Class D amp 2-5x what you need is the resulting general though..

says the guy using a 900W class D amp for his Fractal..lol
 
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