Bandmates don't want to record to a click

aziz said:
Good drummers don't need a click, bad drummers can't play to a click. Make the choice :)
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Thats the thing. If a click is actually hurting the 'feel' ... its because your drummer is great...and by the transitive property.. could play to a click easily. That's when pros use a tempo map ...to bump up a chorus by a few BPM or whatever.

If you plan to copy/paste any part, or use any sequencing...then a click is imperative. Stop debating with these dummies and tell them to try a song both ways. All will be revealed.
 
Muad'zin said:
If you want to add more layers to the music, extra guitar tracks, more synths, backing tracks, then recording with click is mandatory. Yeah, maybe you can fix it afterwards in the DAW, I've done that with some recordings, it takes friggin' FOREVER! Don't make life unnecessarily harder for yourself then it has to be. And if the band still refuses, charge them for your time fixing their mistakes.
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This is another frustrating part. One guy wants me to add synths or midi piano notes or whatever and I just have to say, nope sorry can't do it. Should have recorded to a click. Then the other guy is like, "no way, it's going to ruin the song"

But I have talked with them about it and while the others disagree, the drummer says he's indifferent but that it'll probably be difficult to do it to a click. So we've decided to try the next song with a click. I'm going to record a scratch guitar track to a click and have him play to that.

And to those that say find new musicians to play with, these are my best friends basically.
 
Playing clickless doesn't exclude adding midi stuff, even without nailing everything to grid, which can be a huge chore and mess up the song or feel completely. I only use Reaper so I speak for that program, but it's a quite easy process to find the true tempo of the performance for each and every bar separately. Then you have a song that's in click, or rather a click that's in the song, and the grid conforms to the performance. I use this in our current album project, which is sort of "roots" music, no need to quantize everything into techno music. But since the song is "in click", it's easier to do midi edits and add stuff.

And then it's also fun to point and mock the drummer: "Look here you speed up by 3bpm!"
 
aziz said:
Playing clickless doesn't exclude adding midi stuff, even without nailing everything to grid, which can be a huge chore and mess up the song or feel completely. I only use Reaper so I speak for that program, but it's a quite easy process to find the true tempo of the performance for each and every bar separately. Then you have a song that's in click, or rather a click that's in the song, and the grid conforms to the performance. I use this in our current album project, which is sort of "roots" music, no need to quantize everything into techno music. But since the song is "in click", it's easier to do midi edits and add stuff.

And then it's also fun to point and mock the drummer: "Look here you speed up by 3bpm!"
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That's a pretty cool feature. I use ableton so I'm not sure if they have something similar. I will have to see. Right now it's such a pain in the ass to even just see where the chorus ends. So everything is taking much longer than it needs to. Actually this is half of the reason why I want to use a click. It's just going to make my life so much easier on the editing side, not to mention how it COULD benefit our music. Our drummer is really good but he's human. The main parts we had problems with were sections where the drums are supposed to drop out entirely, but in order to give the guitars a tempo to play to, we had him play quarter note clicks. Well his clicks were slower than the song, so it really messed things up.
 
If you have to ask the original question, then I see little hope. A musician with poor timing is a musician with poor timing. Our drummer constantly drifts ahead of the click, sometimes to the point where I don't know what to follow. After a fill, it's anyone's guess as to where we will be. Without a click, he is a runaway train. But we like him and get along well with him, and he gets the job done to the venues' satisfaction.
 
If it is a fear of a loss of feel, on can always tempo map the click track if there is a need for accellerondos or ritardos or just plain tempo switches in certain sections of songs.

If it's about synching up synths and such, I can't tell you how much money I made playing the chase click track to a drummer that cut a track with no click so that synths could be synchronized up later on.

In the digital realm, your options are endless, especially with the new time stretching and compression algorithms that don't change pitch and looping.
 
I wonder how the Beatles recorded so much w/all the tempo changes and no click? Oh, that's right, it's been said that Ringo was a human metronome...
 
We spent half a day doing drums on one veey simple song. After many frustrated and fumbled takes with a click, the drummer was on the verge of mental breakdown. "F it, one more take without a click." ...then played the song without deviating from the click more than one quarter note during the whole 5 minute song with the click off. Weird...
 
Ton of good old songs have 'variable tempo' but I find a click detrimental for looping, cutting, copying, etc. There are work arounds. Some musicians feel like a 'click' track is judge and jury. I have one awesome client that despises them. So I pick a simple drum loop he likes and drag it out and he's good.

So there are optional MIDI instruments in a project such as tambourine, maracas, hi-hat, etc. that can be substituted. Alternately, if you use Logic, you can flex time the drums after the take however it would be a fairly brutal task for multi-track drum take.
 
There's a web page somewhere with dozens of legendary songs analyzed tempo-wise. Based on those, you'll sell more vinyls without a click. :D

I don't feel the need for quantizing everything, real music is not techno. Good players keep the tempo properly, and id it goes up slightly, is it a disaster or more energy? Of course that all depends on the genre, math metal is different from bluegrass. For me, daw is a digital tape machine, not a "tinker these bits and pieces into a song" -machine, or "fix this mess". The song is made before recording, not after.

But I also like if everything is in grid... :D
 
searching said:
And to those that say find new musicians to play with, these are my best friends basically.
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If you know it isn't working but they are your best friends, it still isn't working. Been there, done that. Then you have two choices, continue this argument, in which case it might get better, or it will sour things, in which case you may ruin your friendships. Or the other choice, accept that its not going to work out. In which you can either leave the band for something more professional, or continue with the band just for fun, and seek something more professional as your new main project.

All bands tend to have friendships as their basis, even if they only met during auditions. Friendship is what keeps bands going during those first formative years. Its when you try to make the next step, or start making money, that friendship is no longer enough, and may even become a hindrance. And a professional mindset becomes the most important. That's why so many bands break up, or have a fall out.

favance said:
I wonder how the Beatles recorded so much w/all the tempo changes and no click? Oh, that's right, it's been said that Ringo was a human metronome...
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Different times as well I guess. When the concept of a click track is not even a dream, making do without is the only option.

mwd said:
Ton of good old songs have 'variable tempo' but I find a click detrimental for looping, cutting, copying, etc. There are work arounds. Some musicians feel like a 'click' track is judge and jury. I have one awesome client that despises them. So I pick a simple drum loop he likes and drag it out and he's good.

So there are optional MIDI instruments in a project such as tambourine, maracas, hi-hat, etc. that can be substituted. Alternately, if you use Logic, you can flex time the drums after the take however it would be a fairly brutal task for multi-track drum take.
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Personally I count those as click track as well. Just because you substitute the sound of an electronically generated beep tone for an instrument sample doesn't turn it into something else instead. In fact I think its even better to do so as those base clicks tend to be more grating on the ears then a hi-hat or maracas sample. To high pitched for my taste.
 
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searching said:
And to those that say find new musicians to play with, these are my best friends basically.
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That's cool. They can be your best friends forever, but you already know where it's going. They're not serious and you are. At some point if you want to pursue things past where you're at right now, you're going to have to move on and see those cats whenever you see them. Or you can smoosh down your expectations to fit what's going on, which is how it's gonna be and never mind what could have been if you got out of the garage wit ya boys.

Life's too short, dude. If you feel like something's holding you back, you gotta stop dragging weight behind you. Watch out, next thing you know you'll be 60 and still in the garage. If that's all you want, that's fine. It's a nice existence. Just don't expect too much out of it.
 
I'm not sure that recommending the guy quit the band with his best friends over the question of a click track is appropriate. Being in a band is about compromise. Try it with, try it without, then have some beers and talk it over.
 
I don't think the problem is playing to a click track or not. The problem is not being able to adapt to using a click. "A click track ruins the feel" is a lame excuse to not adapt to a new and different situation. It's a lot like someone saying "I don't want to learn music theory, it'll stifle my creativity." Only if you let it. IMO one of the greatest "music killers" is the unwillingness to learn something new and hiding behind the "ruins my feel/stifle creativity" excuse. I used to know a guy who would say that these guys aren't really musicians because they refuse to step out of their comfort zone. They're just human jukeboxes, regurgitating whatever is easy and comfortable.
 
We always do a first take with click track on drums for getting a good basis. Then align eventually guitare & bass after. I couldnt imagine do a recording without a click somehow. In holland I used to play with a drummer that was so tight on spot that he was a click track by himself.....
 
Tahoebrian5 said:
I'm not sure that recommending the guy quit the band with his best friends over the question of a click track is appropriate. Being in a band is about compromise. Try it with, try it without, then have some beers and talk it over.
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To really reduce it down to the very last granule of core truth, is the OP's goals the same as his Ivan Broski's? If they're really his best friends they can sit down and have that talk, handle critiquing each other and themselves. Do they all share the same satisfaction of "it's good enough"? It doesn't appear so. Hopefully OP can say to his friends and bandmates in a band meeting (no shit sit down, no instruments, no distractions, neutral site) that he's not satisfied with the level of effort and that he wants to step it up a notch, and then another notch after that, and keep pushing. *If and only if* that's his goal. If his goals don't match the bands, then it's logical to seek situations where the outcomes align with the goals. That's where the "life is too short" statement comes from.

That's not unreasonable. We should all be doing that in everything we do. And that's why the discourse here has elevated beyond the click track, which should be a non-issue.
 
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