Axe-Fx III 16.00 Beta 5 "Cygnus" Firmware - Public Beta #2

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one problem is people want things that are familiar to them, and don't take into consideration anyone else's experience.

i've seen the same person "complain" that a certain amp's controls don't act exactly like the real thing, and they have years of experience with the amp. later they tried an amp they didn't know and "complained" that the Mid knob didn't do anything. he was told that's how the real amp works. he then "complained" that it makes no sense to model an amp to match a Mid knob that doesn't do much, but instead they should make the Mid knob more useful with a bigger range.

so i mean which is it? make some of the amps exact, but not others?

i say this just to show that in discussion, it's easy to think your experience and knowledge is correct, and possibly "only" your knowledge is correct. that seeps into preferences and requests, because your knowledge is superior. that "ego" is in all of us, but some really push it out front, and others realize that there are other experiences and opinions to consider.

when i approach amp models, i know going in that Drive, Bass, Mid, and Treble are going to act differently on different amps. i have to experiment with these and see what they do per amp model. but i enjoy that other things like Master Volume are sort of similar between models, so it's one less thing i have to learn per all amp models. there are other parameters on both sides, but just mentioning those for now. actually, the Jazz120 model comes up often due to how the MV works in the model. people think it's broken, but it was modeled as is. i can't imagine that for all 280+ models.

i would guess that most people who have owned tube amps in their life have had maybe 1 - 3 of the amps modeled in the Axe. of course some may have had more. but with knowledge of only 3 amps, if every single control was exactly like the real amp, it'd be much more difficult to create tones because you'd have to learn even more of every single amp you want to try.

i'm not sure it's worth trading the user experience of adjusting the amps more easily for the absolute authenticity of every single amp model. having one amp at a MV of 1 and it's screaming vs another model that has to be at 10 to get a similar response might confuse people even more than they say they are now.

i think FAS has struck a nice balance of authenticity and ease of use as it is. sure, the small amount of people who have used Amp X and know the Master is up more than it is on the real thing might not like that, but the larger amount of people who've never used that amp might appreciate that the MV behavior is more predictable. those people who don't like the Master on that one model will probably try another model they've never used, and unknowingly appreciate the predictable nature of the MV and other parameters on that new amp.

customer service and product design is always a balancing act. some wishes never get granted because they are very specific and the addition of that option can just confuse the majority of users. i see people say the Axe is confusing because of all the Setup options and other things, but many of those options exist solely because of customer requests over the years. i think if a designer didn't care about their customers, there would be very few options, it'd be super straight-forward, and due to that, actually "easier to use" because of the lack of options.

i appreciate all the options we have now, as it's so flexible to fit in everyone's rigs. it's easy to forget just how different everyone's use-cases are. we've seen so many unique setups shared on the forum, and it's those options that allow those sorts of things.

but this gear is for many people to use, not just one set situation. keeping some of the ease-of-use qualities in the Amp block would be a good idea to me. i don't think the Axe ever set out to model every single aspect of every amp as is - honestly some amp designs are pretty bad, especially some of the classics we love.

i think the goal of the Axe is to sound good, offering a range of options and making some amps more friendly to dial in. it's a balancing act of accuracy and ease of use. i'm sure there are tons of studio tricks that need to be used to make certain amps sound like they do on the record, and that they don't sound that way live in the room without modification or post-processing. i personally wouldn't want those "flaws" in the modeling of the amp if a small tweak can make it respond in a more friendly and usable manner.

it's Cliff's design and product. if Cygnus has accurate MVs, then i'll appreciate the work done and learn how to use them. it's not the end of the world either way. but i feel Cliff has always maintained the integrity of the Amp being modeled, even if there are slight adjustments. the model always reminds me of the specifics of that real amp, and that's just something i don't get from other platforms.
 
Colossal work, congrats for the cover, can't imagine how good Richard Barbieri sounds on guitar.

@fremen - That sounds amazing! Any chance that you’ll post the preset here or on AxeChange? Or possibly make it commercially available? That’s great stuff!

Really Great Fremen !!!!! wow ! HNIC !!!!
Hi guys ! Not to derail the thread, I posted the preset here :

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...read-releases-updates-etc.159990/post-2058687
 
Nice perspective @chris. Of course having more user config options would 'satisfy' more users but adds complexity. If someone said "set the MV to 0.5" it would then depend on the user's settings.

Always a tradeoff of simplicity vs complexity, elegance vs flexibility.
 
I get your point, Chris, but they're outside the realm of my specific points here. If you get a big enough sample size of people there's going to be pains in the ass. There's going to be some too belligerent or dopey to figure one thing or the other out. I get that. I don't envy Cliff's position in the least. I'm not addressing what will make his life easiest, because he's the only one that can do that. My point is simply that, in a vacuum, if amps are being modeled then model the amps, because the goal of modeling amps is to iterate the modeling until it is perfect, right? And, of course even the real amps vary from unit to unit, but then the eventual (probably hypothetical) goal becomes to model every unit in existence, doesn't it? Not that that's actually going to happen, but we already have a handful of instances that address that very sort of thing in the models we have. And I sincerely doubt we're going to hit modeling perfection in a couple years (which seems like about how close we are) and then the companies doing this stuff are just going to be like, "Well, we're done with that."

If there's a benefit to an idealized setting, then provide that in an additional manner. But I guess my point is that on a long enough timeline I don't see anything not being aimed at exactness, so why not nip the MV thing in the bud already?
 
Because switching the MV to an idealized version negates the ability to use all the info out there about setting up the real amps to one's advantage. If they function like the real amps, then we have all the info about the real amps at our fingertips in a 1:1 state. If things get idealized then we have the info specifically about the AFX models and we then have to figure out how anything about the real amps would relate to those models.

you're saying you'd have to rely on your ears?
 
Sigh We're doing that regardless. Why do it and also negate countless instances of discussion about these amps too?

It doesn't negate any of those discussions. It just means you can't treat them as blueprints. (which you can't anyway, given the tolerances)

I don't have a preference, I will adjust to either solution. But if you rely on those countless discussions to dial in a tone you might miss a few things. Experiment, explore, listen, play, repeat. That is usually my approach. Does Artist X have their MV at 4 or 4.5? I don't care. I don't have their fingers, or their exact guitars; it will always sound different.
 
@chris Right on. I feel like the only way to satisfy both sides would be to have some sort of switch to go between warts and all versions and the corrected versions currently in the unit. I mean, you can get every iconic tone (and every other tone you could think of) out of the Axe; why make it more difficult by including design flaws that make finding the sweet spot unbelievably more difficult? The master volume discussion is a huge thing, but also stuff like the presence knob on a 5150, which has a really small range in the real world. And the idea of using universally understood settings is always weird to me. I always hear wild differences in guitars, in players, in everything going into what creates tone. That's the point of have a wide range of options on your amp; what it takes for you to achieve a particular tone will be different than for the next player; that's a good thing, and reflective of how individual we all are when it comes to creating a tone.

Scott Ian would throw a clean boost in front of a stock JCM800 in the 80s, and the sound he was able to get floors me. So much of that is the fact that his right hand is unbelievably aggressive. There are so many ways to get that tone these days, but I guarantee you another player in front of his rig would likely sound just wrong in the same setup. So, to reiterate the most tired but essential cliché, only your ears matter. Cliff has made it far easier to take any amp that's remotely close to what you want and make it exactly what you need.
 
It doesn't negate any of those discussions. It just means you can't treat them as blueprints. (which you can't anyway, given the tolerances)

I don't have a preference, I will adjust to either solution. But if you rely on those countless discussions to dial in a tone you might miss a few things. Experiment, explore, listen, play, repeat. That is usually my approach. Does Artist X have their MV at 4 or 4.5? I don't care. I don't have their fingers, or their exact guitars; it will always sound different.
I agree with you. But what you're talking about here can be done with either taper methodology.

I'll just leave it at, again, if modeling amps is the goal then I say model the amps. In practice I'm going to manage either way.
 
So the bias point for all models is now commensurate with the typical bias point a technician would set the amp at rather than the factory value as the factory value almost always errs on the cold side for tube reliability reasons.
Yes! I’d rather see the Fractal models err towards making the models be the best examples of what they are, rather than the best example the manufacturer shipped.

I’ve had classic Fender amps that were so-so because they were still configured as they came from the factory, and they were sterile and boring and nothing like I’d heard on stages or on record, so to have the Fractal version whup their asses is quite satisfying. I don’t want unrealistic, I want the best example of a tweaked classic amp running in tip-top shape. I appreciate the “FAS” models because those fix errors in the design of the original amps that inspired them, but the majority of the models should remain the truest example of the amp that has been perfectly tweaked.

I am impressed with the new firmware and think Fractal is on to something here. :)
 
If we get the true MV taper, then as a 'punishment' we might get the Fender Blues/Hotrod Deluxe where the amp goes from dead sounding to out of control between 0.9 and 1.1 on the amp master volume😁
Jeez I hated that about the one I had. I think that amp was why I quit trying to get along with their amps and went back to Mesa and to ToneKing.
 
If we get the true MV taper, then as a 'punishment' we might get the Fender Blues/Hotrod Deluxe where the amp goes from dead sounding to out of control between 0.9 and 1.1 on the amp master volume😁

In a perfect world, I'd expect the "authentic" tab to have true pot tapers according to the modelled amp, and the "ideal" tab to have idealized tapers. I have no idea if this is feasible or not.
 
I want to hear some recordings of the new beta!! I still have the Axe II and have been thinking about upgrading to the III based on what I have heard from the Cygnus firmware. I didn’t care for Ares at all, which is why I kind of stopped using my Axe. Anyone have both that could do a comparison? Everything that I’m hearing sounds good so far though.
 
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