Axe-Fx III 16.00 Beta 12 "Cygnus" Firmware - Public Release Candidate

[Randalljax]

To add some more context, and since I know you're a fan of the 5150 among others: The 5150 especially was fixed bias from the factory and could only be adjusted if you modded it in, so it does make sense that your real 5150 would be biased colder than the "how a tech would set it" bias Cliff chose. Mesa amps are the same.

Many metal guys do the cold biased tubes
Kyle from KSR is another that told me the ship cold to increase tube life and because a lot of customers want the tightness but if you want a warmer sound with a little give for
hard rock he recommends a hotter bias

 

[cardinal]

Many metal guys do the cold biased tubes
Kyle from KSR is another that told me the ship cold to increase tube life and because a lot of customers want the tightness but if you want a warmer sound with a little give for
hard rock he recommends a hotter bias

Yeah, I tend to run a cold bias even with Marshall amps. Holds together a bit better to me.

Dizzy V4 Silver 4 has a whopping TON of gain....even at 0 input drive is that correct Cliff?

I nuked my axe recently and reinstalled the factory presets, so it's preset 70 channel 3, and as I turned on the axe my guitar started feeding back and was really noisy with more gain than I ever thought possible on an amp

Not complaining, but it sounds REALLY over the top with gain now, just wanna know if it's correct or not

I've never played a real Diezel so I can't compare, but it has been one of my favorite amps/presets as of Cygnus, and I know the model was updated in this version, so if it is correct, no biggie, but even at 0 input gain this thing is a raging gain monster!!

I've had a few VH4 amps over the years. The 4th Channel has become nearly unusable over the years. The gain of the amp has increased over time. The earlier bluefaced ones could tame the 4th channel, but the more recent silver faced ones have so much gain and compression that by the time you reach the 4th channel it's just bonkers.

 

[FractalAudio]

Yeah, I tend to run a cold bias even with Marshall amps. Holds together a bit better to me.

I've had a few VH4 amps over the years. The 4th Channel has become nearly unusable over the years. The gain of the amp has increased over time. The earlier bluefaced ones could tame the 4th channel, but the more recent silver faced ones have so much gain and compression that by the time you reach the 4th channel it's just bonkers.

Personally I find Diezels have way too much compression. I can't divulge how they do it but I don't like the technique because it's just over the top and when you roll the volume back you get this weird almost gated sound.

 

[Manny Fufish]

Thanks! Used to be my main instrument as a child

Yep, even in that small excerpt, you can tell

 

[Jandrezedouard]

The BE thing is weird. I have a BE-100 Deluxe that I love. I found the BE models in beta 11 to be flubby and fizzy compared to my amp and I much prefer the beta 12 versions, even though those appear to be based on an earlier version of the amp. The Deluxe has a number of ways to shape the low end using the thump knob, thump frequency switch and the response (negative feedback) switch. I don't know how Cliff had those set when he modeled it and I could probably make mine match the beta 11 models if I tried. But the way I run my BE may not be typical of the "Friedman Sound". I keep the thump very low and the response switch in the brightest position for more of a classic Marshall sound. I know Cliff said you can't perfectly replicate the beta 11 models, but you can probably get close by dropping the input EQ low cut and adjusting bias excursion. I used to obsess over how perfectly the models matched my real amps, but I've realized that just isn't a productive use of my time.

I know what you mean. Friedman amps seem to be « simple » but you can have a wide variety of sounds from them. I remember, when I first tried them with my Kemper, commercial packs were completely different from one to an other. With the deluxe can go from thin aggressive crispy vintage Marshallish sound to more modern modded 800/recto type of sound. I really like it in between. But that’s the hardest thing to do
As I said: betas are made to discuss and finally find the best compromises... thanks all for advices!

 

[York Audio]

To add some more context, and since I know you're a fan of the 5150 among others: The 5150 especially was fixed bias from the factory and could only be adjusted if you modded it in, so it does make sense that your real 5150 would be biased colder than the "how a tech would set it" bias Cliff chose. Mesa amps are the same.

I completely agree with you. The 5150 and Dual Rec were two amps I used for the comparison. I think some Marshall style amps benefit from the hotter bias, so it’s not entirely a bad thing. The earlier Cygnus betas with the colder factory bias values made it really easy for me to plug in my amp, compare it to the model, and say “yup, that sounds like the amp.” The hotter bias values just mean that I have to go under the hood to try to get the model to sound like the stock amp. I’m just saying it would be nice to have the accurate factory bias value, and those who want to run it hotter and don’t mind the extra upper mids can set the bias value to their tastes rather than trying to manually “undo” a bias mod that wasn’t originally intended for the amp.

It’s Cliff’s call if he wants to go authentic to the reference amps or run them hotter. If he decides to keep them hotter, it would be nice to have the factory bias values documented somewhere for those of us who like to keep amps in stock form. Whenever I get a new amp, I always take it to my tech to go through it and return any mods back to the amp’s original values so I know I’m hearing it as the amp designers originally intended.

It’s not a complaint, just a request.

 

[Budda]

Will try... would be simpler if Cliff added this model to the amp list though

Except it wouldnt. Take the time, do the tweaks, save it, back it up 2x and never think about it again.

 

[horror]

I found the BE models in beta 11 to be flubby and fizzy compared to my amp and I much prefer the beta 12 versions, even though those appear to be based on an earlier version of the amp.

Yeah, gotta agree with you here. I am loving the beta 12 versions and haven’t stopped playing BE C45 since this release candidate dropped.

 

[Thomas Obester]

Personally I find Diezels have way too much compression. I can't divulge how they do it but I don't like the technique because it's just over the top and when you roll the volume back you get this weird almost gated sound.

I love to death herbie 3 with gain on 30%... the trick I do is to lower the cathode follower compression by 10-12% and then it sounds truly explosive /,,/

 

[Jandrezedouard]

Yeah, gotta agree with you here. I am loving the beta 12 versions and haven’t stopped playing BE C45 since this release candidate dropped.

I’m glad be C45 is back. Will check this one too. Maybe my next favorite ?

 

[FractalAudio]

I completely agree with you. The 5150 and Dual Rec were two amps I used for the comparison. I think some Marshall style amps benefit from the hotter bias, so it’s not entirely a bad thing. The earlier Cygnus betas with the colder factory bias values made it really easy for me to plug in my amp, compare it to the model, and say “yup, that sounds like the amp.” The hotter bias values just mean that I have to go under the hood to try to get the model to sound like the stock amp. I’m just saying it would be nice to have the accurate factory bias value, and those who want to run it hotter and don’t mind the extra upper mids can set the bias value to their tastes rather than trying to manually “undo” a bias mod that wasn’t originally intended for the amp.

It’s Cliff’s call if he wants to go authentic to the reference amps or run them hotter. If he decides to keep them hotter, it would be nice to have the factory bias values documented somewhere for those of us who like to keep amps in stock form. Whenever I get a new amp, I always take it to my tech to go through it and return any mods back to the amp’s original values so I know I’m hearing it as the amp designers originally intended.

It’s not a complaint, just a request.

The bias values have been the newer values since the second public beta. Only the very first public beta had the colder values. And on those two particular amps the value hasn't changed much. The Rectos were 0.45 and now they're 0.48. The 5150s were 0.45 and now they're 0.5. That's a very subtle change.

I'm thinking there's something wrong in your setup.

 

[maxolla]

Been through many iterations (upgrades in firmware). Many times I’ve been hard pressed to find a difference in tone. This firmware to my ears is a leap forward and the tonal difference is palpable. Some amps that I never gave much thought are now on the table as possible choices for getting some of the tones I love.

the buttery may never make is on my short list but Its character in this firmware is Something I’ve never heard in an amp. Truly amazing and quirky. All of the plexi models sound bigger and better, just to name a few. Haven’t been able to go through all of the amps and I most likely won’t, but the ones I have gone through sound great.
thanks FAS team.

 

[lscottk]

Will try... would be simpler if Cliff added this model to the amp list though

I find it frustrating that one voice amongst many is so insistent about getting one particular sound. There have been a large number of posts about this (I haven't counted, but I would think at least 20 - 30) and it gets tiresome. If you were buying a physical amp you would find that different amps sound different, due to a variety of factors, not least of which is the 10% +/- tolerances (or higher) of components, how the amp is biased, what kind of tubes are in the amp, how old the tubes are, and so on. Component variances impacting tone has been discussed so many times in my 10 years on this forum that I couldn't begin to count how often it has been discussed.

Can't we move on? I'm sure that Cliff has read your posts and knows how much you want both the beta 11 and beta 12 versions of the Friedman amps. We already have an embarrassment of riches and Thomas Obester has suggested some simple parameters to adjust to get the beta 11 sound in beta 12. Cliff and team has worked hours and hours on this for weeks straight. Can you imagine lugging all of those heavy amp heads from storage, setting them up for testing, likely pulling apart the chassis to verify component values and topology, then going through all of the code to make sure that everything lines up with the physical amp values? This has been a shit load of work! And we get the fruit of all of this hard work for free. Most manufacturers don't even come close to this level of commitment to their customers.

It makes sense to ask for something if it is important to you. No problem with that. I just wish that it was a single ask, instead of multiple asks dominating multiple pages of this thread.

Obviously this is just my opinion. YMMV

 

[York Audio]

The bias values have been the newer values since the second public beta. Only the very first public beta had the colder values. And on those two particular amps the value hasn't changed much. The Rectos were 0.45 and now they're 0.48. The 5150s were 0.45 and now they're 0.5. That's a very subtle change.

I'm thinking there's something wrong in your setup.

Let me know if you think there’s an issue with my setup:

Amp plugged into Furman Voltage regulator (120-125V)
Voltage regulator plugged into high end Furman Power conditioner connected to wall outlet (everything ends up going through the Power Conditioner)

Amp plugged into LB-2 with shortest possible Mogami cables and DI Level set to Max.

Preset is based on the Tone Match patch you sent me back in December.

I’m open to any suggestions you have. Let me know if you need more info.

 

[Jandrezedouard]

I find it frustrating that one voice amongst many is so insistent about getting one particular sound. There have been a large number of posts about this (I haven't counted, but I would think at least 20 - 30) and it gets tiresome. If you were buying a physical amp you would find that different amps sound different, due to a variety of factors, not least of which is the 10% +/- tolerances (or higher) of components, how the amp is biased, what kind of tubes are in the amp, how old the tubes are, and so on. Component variances impacting tone has been discussed so many times in my 10 years on this forum that I couldn't begin to count how often it has been discussed.

Can't we move on? I'm sure that Cliff has read your posts and knows how much you want both the beta 11 and beta 12 versions of the Friedman amps. We already have an embarrassment of riches and Thomas Obester has suggested some simple parameters to adjust to get the beta 11 sound in beta 12. Cliff and team has worked hours and hours on this for weeks straight. Can you imagine lugging all of those heavy amp heads from storage, setting them up for testing, likely pulling apart the chassis to verify component values and topology, then going through all of the code to make sure that everything lines up with the physical amp values? This has been a shit load of work! And we get the fruit of all of this hard work for free. Most manufacturers don't even come close to this level of commitment to their customers.

It makes sense to ask for something if it is important to you. No problem with that. I just wish that it was a single ask, instead of multiple asks dominating multiple pages of this thread.

Obviously this is just my opinion. YMMV

You’re right I wrote too much
As always, as soon as I want something, especially if I had it before . Ok I and

 

[Valhallir]

As I never tried (and never will) any beta firmwares from the Axe Fx Standard, to the Axefx II, the Ax8 and now, the Axefx III, I can't tell about the difference between the (already GREAT) FW 15.1 and Cygnus. But I'm pretty sure, that it just will be worth the wait.
Through all the years, every major firmware update in the Frac's I have used, was always an improvement soundwise.
I have bought and sold sooo many amps, preamps, Fx, 19" units, before I switched to Fractal Audio, so everything was "in the flow" and "a-changing" ;-)
And yes, I'm very excited about, how my favorite amps will sound, but I'm not afraid. It's just like waiting for a bunch of new amps, and when the postman knocks at the door, saying: "I have a couple of hundreds of great amps for you - and they are for free!" you will see the biggest Joker-smile on my face.

You like your "old sounding" amp-sims? Just keep FW 15.1. It's great. But Thunberg is Greta. ;-)

 

[GlennO]

Beta 11 was based on a 2020 BE Deluxe. There are a couple resistors that are larger values which lowers the cutoff frequency of the coupling capacitors.

People were complaining about the models so I went back to the 2018 version of the amp. There is nothing you can do as a user aside from using Beta 11.

Thanks for the explanation. I'll put in a vote in favor of adding the new 2018 Friedman instead of replacing the 2020, if that's at all practical. That 2020 Friedman sure was sweet.

 

[Thomas Obester]

I find it frustrating that one voice amongst many is so insistent about getting one particular sound. There have been a large number of posts about this (I haven't counted, but I would think at least 20 - 30) and it gets tiresome. If you were buying a physical amp you would find that different amps sound different, due to a variety of factors, not least of which is the 10% +/- tolerances (or higher) of components, how the amp is biased, what kind of tubes are in the amp, how old the tubes are, and so on. Component variances impacting tone has been discussed so many times in my 10 years on this forum that I couldn't begin to count how often it has been discussed.

Can't we move on? I'm sure that Cliff has read your posts and knows how much you want both the beta 11 and beta 12 versions of the Friedman amps. We already have an embarrassment of riches and Thomas Obester has suggested some simple parameters to adjust to get the beta 11 sound in beta 12. Cliff and team has worked hours and hours on this for weeks straight. Can you imagine lugging all of those heavy amp heads from storage, setting them up for testing, likely pulling apart the chassis to verify component values and topology, then going through all of the code to make sure that everything lines up with the physical amp values? This has been a shit load of work! And we get the fruit of all of this hard work for free. Most manufacturers don't even come close to this level of commitment to their customers.

It makes sense to ask for something if it is important to you. No problem with that. I just wish that it was a single ask, instead of multiple asks dominating multiple pages of this thread.

Obviously this is just my opinion. YMMV

coudn’t agree more and coudn’t write it better, as english is not my native language

 

[GreatGreen]

Personally I find Diezels have way too much compression. I can't divulge how they do it but I don't like the technique because it's just over the top and when you roll the volume back you get this weird almost gated sound.

So it's not just me!

I remember playing an Einstein years ago and wondering if there was a dedicated compressor circuit after the preamp.

 

[Thomas Obester]

So it's not just me!

I remember playing an Einstein years ago and wondering if there was a dedicated compressor circuit after the preamp.

that’s why many guys in mod business offers some kind of decompression mods for diezels