Axe-Fx Accuracy Issues

[mortega76]

This is an interesting subject. Lurking the Axe forum for a couple of years, and owning one for several months now, I've seen a pattern. Either the Axe works for you pretty much right out of the box, or it doesn't work for you at all. The ratio seems to be >90% favorable if you go by the "just got my Axe and it sounds great" posts. I count myself fortunate to be in the "great sound with no eq necessary" camp. I think this basically means I have a really good set of speakers and I'm not trying to go too loud.

The majority of the owners with issues seem to be the "must match the amp in the room" types. There's nothing wrong with that expectation, but I suspect it all boils down to what you are playing it through and how loud you are trying to go. To get what the OP wants you need a really powerful and transparent FRFR, or you end up using a tube power amp and cab, which defeats the purpose of the Axe IMO.

My conclusion is that the OP's amplification method, whatever it is, is just not up to the job of giving him what he needs at the volume he wants. If it was, he wouldn't need massive eq other than to deal with FM effects at high volume.

JWW

It hasn't been confirmed but Cliff has stated a couple of times that turning up the Master Volume on the Recto New (which I've never played a real Recto live) past 3 (give or take) will make the amp sound like mud. So I don't know if when Cliff's A/B'ing the amps, doe he turn the master to around 3 o'clock to A/B them at that volume? (without adjusting the level).

Also, does Cliff A/B with a newer (non-MOSFET) style power amp or only with the older (MOSFET) style power amp? From what I'm reading the older MOSFET sytle power amps may color the sound similar to how a tube power amp colors the sound of the Axe-fx.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

It hasn't been confirmed but Cliff has stated a couple of times that turning up the Master Volume on the Recto New (which I've never played a real Recto live) past 3 (give or take) will make the amp sound like mud.

Given your disclaimer - "I've never played a real Recto live" - what could possibly be the relevance of this statement to the discussion?

So I don't know if when Cliff's A/B'ing the amps, doe he turn the master to around 3 o'clock to A/B them at that volume?

This implies that there are glaring errors in Cliff's evaluation/comparison process. This is not exactly guaranteed to endear you to him or to motivate him to help you.

From what I'm reading the older MOSFET sytle power amps may color the sound similar to how a tube power amp colors the sound of the Axe-fx.

Whatever you're "reading," it is completely off base. The favorable comparisons that were made between MOSFET and tube amplifiers were in regard to HI-FI tube amplification, a different animal altogether than guitar amplifiers. I assure you that you've never experienced one of these. They do not "color the sound." Nor do well-designed ss amps with MOSFET output stages (e.g., Haflers). You're just grasping at straws here....

You've now heard the same advice from Cliff, myself, and at least two others in this thread: give it up already and buy one of the tube amps that (in your opinion) the Axe-Fx can't match.

 

[dk_ace]

It hasn't been confirmed but Cliff has stated a couple of times that turning up the Master Volume on the Recto New (which I've never played a real Recto live) past 3 (give or take) will make the amp sound like mud. So I don't know if when Cliff's A/B'ing the amps, doe he turn the master to around 3 o'clock to A/B them at that volume? (without adjusting the level).

I've found the modeling of the amps that I've owned to be very consistent with their physical counterparts. The exception to that being the taper of the tonestack controls, but Cliff's solution to that makes far more sense than mimicking the pot tapers in the real amps.

Since you brought up Recto New, I wanted to chime in here. I owned and gigged one of those amps for several years when I was into heavier sounds. For the master control on the front of the amp to actually function as the master, you have to disable the effects loop (otherwise the effects send control on the back is effectively the master). If you do that and turn it past 3, the amp does get mushy, flubby, ____ fill in any other word that high gain players don't like... It will vaporize small animals at this volume, but the tonal capabilities of the amp are completely altered at these levels. I've found that the Recto model sounds authentic if you run it as most people actually do the real amp which is with the master very low (I doubt most players get them past two even at their largest gigs).

Now here's the tricky part with the recto... If you have the effects loop engaged, the effects send is really the effective master volume on the amp. That's why you'll see players with higher master settings on the front panel of the amp. If you dump the loop send level to where it's barely on, you can make it look like that front panel master is really cranked, but in reality the amp is running at 1 instead of 10.

I forgot about that point when I was first messing with the recto model, and because of that I thought it was quite different sounding than my amp was (my front panel master sat around 5 most times). Once I remembered how that send level worked, I knew I needed to dramatically lower the the Axe-FX master volume on that model. As soon as I did that, it felt and sounded just like my recto.

The point here isn't as much about that one model as it is that often to get the best out of any model it helps to be intimately familiar with the amp model in question. If you just look at someone else's Recto front panel settings and dial those in on the Axe it won't sound right, but that's because the amp works differently than it appears to and not because the Axe-FX model has a problem.

Even amps that I immediately fall in love with take time (often years) for me to really learn how to fully exploit them. The Axe-FX models are no different. Any given model is probably just as rich as the real amp, but it takes time to really learn how to get the most out of it. This is why I primarily only work with a handful of the models in the Axe-FX. Each one has so much to offer that you need to spend time with them to really get the best sounds out of them.

D

 

[yek]

It hasn't been confirmed but Cliff has stated a couple of times that turning up the Master Volume on the Recto New (which I've never played a real Recto live) past 3 (give or take) will make the amp sound like mud. So I don't know if when Cliff's A/B'ing the amps, doe he turn the master to around 3 o'clock to A/B them at that volume? (without adjusting the level).

I've found the modeling of the amps that I've owned to be very consistent with their physical counterparts. The exception to that being the taper of the tonestack controls, but Cliff's solution to that makes far more sense than mimicking the pot tapers in the real amps.

Since you brought up Recto New, I wanted to chime in here. I owned and gigged one of those amps for several years when I was into heavier sounds. For the master control on the front of the amp to actually function as the master, you have to disable the effects loop (otherwise the effects send control on the back is effectively the master). If you do that and turn it past 3, the amp does get mushy, flubby, ____ fill in any other word that high gain players don't like... It will vaporize small animals at this volume, but the tonal capabilities of the amp are completely altered at these levels. I've found that the Recto model sounds authentic if you run it as most people actually do the real amp which is with the master very low (I doubt most players get them past two even at their largest gigs).

Now here's the tricky part with the recto... If you have the effects loop engaged, the effects send is really the effective master volume on the amp. That's why you'll see players with higher master settings on the front panel of the amp. If you dump the loop send level to where it's barely on, you can make it look like that front panel master is really cranked, but in reality the amp is running at 1 instead of 10.

I forgot about that point when I was first messing with the recto model, and because of that I thought it was quite different sounding than my amp was (my front panel master sat around 5 most times). Once I remembered how that send level worked, I knew I needed to dramatically lower the the Axe-FX master volume on that model. As soon as I did that, it felt and sounded just like my recto.

The point here isn't as much about that one model as it is that often to get the best out of any model it helps to be intimately familiar with the amp model in question. If you just look at someone else's Recto front panel settings and dial those in on the Axe it won't sound right, but that's because the amp works differently than it appears to and not because the Axe-FX model has a problem.

Even amps that I immediately fall in love with take time (often years) for me to really learn how to fully exploit them. The Axe-FX models are no different. Any given model is probably just as rich as the real amp, but it takes time to really learn how to get the most out of it. This is why I primarily only work with a handful of the models in the Axe-FX. Each one has so much to offer that you need to spend time with them to really get the best sounds out of them.

D

Balanced, comprehensive and very sensible post, kudos.

 

[mortega76]

It hasn't been confirmed but Cliff has stated a couple of times that turning up the Master Volume on the Recto New (which I've never played a real Recto live) past 3 (give or take) will make the amp sound like mud.

Given your disclaimer - "I've never played a real Recto live" - what could possibly be the relevance of this statement to the discussion?

So I don't know if when Cliff's A/B'ing the amps, doe he turn the master to around 3 o'clock to A/B them at that volume?

This implies that there are glaring errors in Cliff's evaluation/comparison process. This is not exactly guaranteed to endear you to him or to motivate him to help you.

[quote:2zl8lc4m]From what I'm reading the older MOSFET sytle power amps may color the sound similar to how a tube power amp colors the sound of the Axe-fx.

Whatever you're "reading," it is completely off base. The favorable comparisons that were made between MOSFET and tube amplifiers were in regard to HI-FI tube amplification, a different animal altogether than guitar amplifiers. I assure you that you've never experienced one of these. They do not "color the sound." Nor do well-designed ss amps with MOSFET output stages (e.g., Haflers). You're just grasping at straws here....

You've now heard the same advice from Cliff, myself, and at least two others in this thread: give it up already and buy one of the tube amps that (in your opinion) the Axe-Fx can't match.[/quote:2zl8lc4m]
Love me some Dr. Jay in the morning...

I hope I don't have to repeat myself...

Unlike some comments that have floated around (specifically in this thread)... I MEAN NO DISRESPECT WITH ANY OF MY COMMENTS...

That being said... I'm only asking the questions that pop into my "Mo < Jay" feeble mind, so that I can rule out any and all issues that my feeble mind comes up with...

Could it be said then, that none of the current SS power amps (presumably the sub $1000) will properly amplify the Axe-fx unless it is a MOSFET (high fidelity) power amplifier regardless of whether some folks assume they are getting the proper application and thus getting acceptable results for said individual?

 

[mortega76]

It hasn't been confirmed but Cliff has stated a couple of times that turning up the Master Volume on the Recto New (which I've never played a real Recto live) past 3 (give or take) will make the amp sound like mud. So I don't know if when Cliff's A/B'ing the amps, doe he turn the master to around 3 o'clock to A/B them at that volume? (without adjusting the level).

I've found the modeling of the amps that I've owned to be very consistent with their physical counterparts. The exception to that being the taper of the tonestack controls, but Cliff's solution to that makes far more sense than mimicking the pot tapers in the real amps.

Since you brought up Recto New, I wanted to chime in here. I owned and gigged one of those amps for several years when I was into heavier sounds. For the master control on the front of the amp to actually function as the master, you have to disable the effects loop (otherwise the effects send control on the back is effectively the master). If you do that and turn it past 3, the amp does get mushy, flubby, ____ fill in any other word that high gain players don't like... It will vaporize small animals at this volume, but the tonal capabilities of the amp are completely altered at these levels. I've found that the Recto model sounds authentic if you run it as most people actually do the real amp which is with the master very low (I doubt most players get them past two even at their largest gigs).

Now here's the tricky part with the recto... If you have the effects loop engaged, the effects send is really the effective master volume on the amp. That's why you'll see players with higher master settings on the front panel of the amp. If you dump the loop send level to where it's barely on, you can make it look like that front panel master is really cranked, but in reality the amp is running at 1 instead of 10.

I forgot about that point when I was first messing with the recto model, and because of that I thought it was quite different sounding than my amp was (my front panel master sat around 5 most times). Once I remembered how that send level worked, I knew I needed to dramatically lower the the Axe-FX master volume on that model. As soon as I did that, it felt and sounded just like my recto.

The point here isn't as much about that one model as it is that often to get the best out of any model it helps to be intimately familiar with the amp model in question. If you just look at someone else's Recto front panel settings and dial those in on the Axe it won't sound right, but that's because the amp works differently than it appears to and not because the Axe-FX model has a problem.

Even amps that I immediately fall in love with take time (often years) for me to really learn how to fully exploit them. The Axe-FX models are no different. Any given model is probably just as rich as the real amp, but it takes time to really learn how to get the most out of it. This is why I primarily only work with a handful of the models in the Axe-FX. Each one has so much to offer that you need to spend time with them to really get the best sounds out of them.

D

Thanks for chiming in dk_ace... i really appreciate your positive and informative experience with the Recto amp...

In our case we jumped from a couple of high gain amp sims and still felt that the "meat" was missing...

So in the case of the Recto New... would it be good to "virtually disconnect" the fx-loop (don't know if it is or not obviously) to optimize the amp sim and make the master volume more usable? Similar to how Cliff used "optimal" tapers for the tonestacks?

Damn... I wish I loved closer to NH so that I could possibly go in and demo the unit with the man himself... or better yet, I wish they had a more powerful 100 watt stereo amp that FAS/Atomic would sell.

 

[mortega76]

In my search for a Mosfet style power amp, I kept coming up with Mosfet car audio power amps... I know some of you will think this is a stupid question but, would this Mosfet style power amp be comparable to something like what Cliff runs in the Carvin F1200 Mosfet power amp?

 

[dk_ace]

Thanks for chiming in dk_ace... i really appreciate your positive and informative experience with the Recto amp...

In our case we jumped from a couple of high gain amp sims and still felt that the "meat" was missing...

So in the case of the Recto New... would it be good to "virtually disconnect" the fx-loop (don't know if it is or not obviously) to optimize the amp sim and make the master volume more usable? Similar to how Cliff used "optimal" tapers for the tonestacks?

Damn... I wish I loved closer to NH so that I could possibly go in and demo the unit with the man himself... or better yet, I wish they had a more powerful 100 watt stereo amp that FAS/Atomic would sell.

I'm not sure what "meat" is, so I can't really address that. I do seem to remember though that you've had a lot of trouble finding an adequate setup to run the Axe with in these testing scenarios, so I would think that is more likely the culprit than the models in question with regard to this issue.

As to whether the master control should be reworked to be more useable in these amps, no. If you spend a lot of time with the real amps like the recto, you'll know that power amp saturation is something you have to avoid to get the amp's intended sound. That is why they're so bloody loud at relatively low master settings (remember that most players can't really get them above 2). They're supposed to be loud enough to cover just about any gig without saturating the power section.

In light of that, you don't need more useable range out of the master control. You need to set it extremely low, because that is how the amp is supposed to be used. There's no appreciable benefit in running the master higher on the recto. There are other sounds you can achieve by running it higher which you may or may not like, but if you want the signature sound of the recto you need to keep the master extremely low just like you would in real life.

Trust me, a Triple Rec on 1 is louder than many cranked vintage amps I've used. Those amps benefit greatly from high master settings. The recto (and most high gain amps like it) gets it's sound by NOT pushing the power section. If you run high or even med-high master settings with these amps in the Axe-FX, they'll sound just like the real ones will at those settings. The problem is, that isn't a sound you're likely to want.

D

 

[mortega76]

Thanks for chiming in dk_ace... Without adjusting the level parameter... A master setting of 2-3 is super low with my power amp set to max (which is how I normally set it up) and with the axe-fx output level to max... It doesn't get anywhere close to loud until I crank the level to +12-13 on the level control... Then the sound (without adjusting any other setting) sounds very thin with no low to mid range growl until I crank up the master...

 

[rsf1977]

Just contact Trace at Voodoo Amps in Ithaca NY and he can set you straight on the ins/outs of how to get the most out of a Dual Rectifier setup. I think they have a forum on their site. Then that might shed light on how to dial one in better on the AxeFx.

 

[dk_ace]

Thanks for chiming in dk_ace... Without adjusting the level parameter... A master setting of 2-3 is super low with my power amp set to max (which is how I normally set it up) and with the axe-fx output level to max... It doesn't get anywhere close to loud until I crank the level to +12-13 on the level control... Then the sound (without adjusting any other setting) sounds very thin with no low to mid range growl until I crank up the master...

This is not a modelling problem. You have a rig problem, but I'm not familiar enough with what you're doing to diagnose it for you (sounds like you have the wrong config or possibly even malfunctioning hardware - meaning the power amp). You're looking to the wrong solution here.

The Recto model sounds like a Recto and there's no special settings or tricks required to get it to sound like a Recto (meaning that the Voodoo site or modding won't help you).

D

 

[plexi59]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I found Axe's Recto model (don't remember which one) very close to the Tremoverb I had, except I had to CRANK the heck out of Tremoverb to get it to sound decent. That was very inconvenient, since the volume gets unbearable before the volume control is at noon, and it only gets worse from there (albeit not much worse, output stage is pretty saturated by then already). And it just doesn't sound the same with a Hotplate. Off to the 'bay it went.

 

[mortega76]

Thanks for chiming in fellas... the only reason I was bringing up the Master Volume was because Cliff specifically said it would sound like mud with the Recto New model... it's never been stated whether that is the case with all higher gain models or only with the Mesa style amp sims or only the Recto New amp sim.

I'm not sure if you've read the other thread where I stated that we A/B'd the Axe-fx against a 5150 and a ENGL SE and we could not get the low to mid range "meat" or "growl" when using the standard (drive, BMH, presence and MV) without adding some massive GEQ... and with 10.01 we actually got it sounding better than the 5150 and ENGL SE (much cleaner but still missing a bit of the tube presence sizzle)... I have not had a chance to go back with 10.03. Hopefully tomorrow I'm going to get a chance to A/B with 10.03 on my buddy's newly purchased Axe-fx (which he got after he test drove mine with 10.01)... but now he too is struggling to get that certain "something" that he gets with the power section of his 5150 in 4CM as apposed to the Axe-fx (10.03) and the QSC RMX 2450. I will take my Peavey PV1500 and test it against the QSC RMX 2450 and the power section of his 5150. He sold the ENGL SE to fund the Axe-fx.

 

[rsf1977]

I think its probably more to do with the power amp then the modeling. I'm looking into getting a matrix power amp I thinK, they look like a quality product. Then at least I can focus on my preset tweaking and stop wondering about the power amp sucking.

 

[vAmpli]

the only reason I was bringing up the Master Volume was because Cliff specifically said it would sound like mud with the Recto New model... it's never been stated whether that is the case with all higher gain models or only with the Mesa style amp sims or only the Recto New amp sim.

If this is related, then it was stated numerous times (and it's in the Wiki amp infos, which MV to use, no?).

Master at 7.02 on the Recto model is WAY too high and will sound muddy. You should be around 3-4, maybe less. This is most likely the source of your lack of "juicy goodness" or "25%" nonsense. [...] I said something to the effect "for old, non-MV amps like Fenders and Plexis you typically want to run the Master at 9 or higher". For modern, high-gain, MV amps you typically want the Master below 5. I've stated this numerous times. Try the Master at 3ish. Turn the drive up and increase the Bass or Depth to get the desired low end. Juicy goodness will ensue

Can't find the exact post...

 

[austinbuddy]

As the original OP, I can tell you I have no dissatisfaction with the AXE -FX unit. None. It is saving me tens of thousands of dollars of vintage amps.

Am fortunate that have access to vintage store here in Austin so I can hear in person things like old Tweeds. My original post was simply to describe a process -- flawed or not -- I went through to see if could actually "nail" the Bogner Ecstasy 101B tone using AXE FX AND (BIG AND) the Atomic Wedge powered monitors, in the hopes that would not longer need the 101B for "average" gigs.

Scott Peterson seemingly had the same objective before me. I do not have technical knowledge of electronics or how amps work or are "supposed to" work. Have been playing for 33 years and have an ear for tones i like to think, but that does not make me a magic alchemist in creating them.

The AXE FX is the best product I've ever found in terms of faithfully reproducing tones and playing dynamics I love, better than POD, Amplitube, etc. and get rewarded everytime sit down with it. It's like Christmas ever day. But, with 34+ parameters in amp and cab alone, there are a lot of variables potentially to master. Cliff's post that he mainly just uses the basic page with gain and tone controls and "may" tweak the Speaker resonance is a message to me -- to quit playing with the advanced pages so much... spend more effort on the basics and use my EARS not eyes... next, want to figure out how to set up some keyboard hardware knobs via MIDI to tweak on the fly rather than mousing around every knob next, that may help the process move faster if possible.

(What have to figure out is whether the Atomic powered Wedges can do the gig, especially at higher volumes... that's the next project. Believe there is some volume effect on human perception of frequencies that will sound "balanced" at low level but the mids get squeezed out as you get louder?....Fletcher Munson curve? Or maybe I don't know what I am talking about! Guitar amps are generally mid range creatures... Gonna take the Atomic's out this weekend and see what volume effect is on "great" patches that sound killer at low volume...think Yek said he found them to (paraphrasing here) "struggle" a little more at higher volumes).

Why the piece on the Atomics? Because in OP, was trying to use the AXE FX EQ to compensate for making them more "Cabinet-like"... which may be a fool's errand, but it was an experiment, that was the point.

The purpose of my OP was fulfilled; Scott presented a better Blue Bogner patch that captured the mids I had trouble with, and suspect if someone examined my settings in advanced pages that probably threw a bunch of stuff "off" what norm should be in twiddling just trying to achieve the sound on A/B basis. Was not "recommending" anyone follow my methodology, it's the only way knew how to go about it and may appear tortuous to most (you can indeed chase your tail and waste hours doing it the way I pursued it).

What love about the forum is the ability to draw on expertise to help me learn more. I cruised the forum a good bit, used Evernote program in addition bookmarks to make copies of pages with critical info nuggets that may not have found on the excellent Wiki. Probably many users could probably benefit from an on-line training course that goes more in depth on the amp/cab pages and parameters, but that should not happen until the newly designed AXE EDitor is out (maybe early 2011!) since it will need to be based on that in part.

FOR MOST PLAYERS, YOU CAN GET THE TONES YOU WANT if you are willing to work with it and also use other CAB IRs. The proof of this again to me is Dweezil Zappa, I have heard him do amazing things with the AXE FX -- he is nailing Frank Zappa studio guitar tones with relentless precision. Was lucky enough to attend Dweezilla 2010 and meet Matt Picone and learn more.

Every worthy player should certainly still own a good tube amp you love to play that inspires you. But the AXE FX is more than a supplement and especially useful for recording, MUCH easier than ,mic'ing and amp in a room IMHO. But also see the AXE FX has the most powerful, flexible and versatile tool for not just recreating vintage and modern sounds, but creating your own thing.

For $2000 last March for Ultra, bought 50 years of guitar tones in a single package and saved me tens of thousands of future dollars chasing tones via vintage gear. There is not a more cost-effective way to get a huge guitar sonic pallette than the AXE FX today IMHO.

Steve Vai used it on the Hendrix tour (a friend of mine was his guitar tech on the tour)... and it was reported to me here in Austin Eric Johnson has played around with Lance Keltner's AXE FX in making EJ's last record and was suitably impressed... These are people who have better tone ears than I. Will continue to evangelize! And want to thank once again al the forum posters who offered me words of advice and encouragement, hope to be worthy and make helpful contributions to our common cause here!

 

[Dramelot]

Yep, what he said..
fellow Texan!

 

[nobbi]

The best way I think for solving the problem A/B (real amp/Axe-tone) is the following: all opponents in this thread should plan their holiday in 2011 at Cliffs home, bringing their complete gear along and try to tweak the axe to their reference amps and cabs - together with Cliff. Words, diagrams, mp3s or youtube cannot replace the "in the room feel and hear". It´s my opinion - Nobbi.

 

[Smilzo]

plan their holiday in 2011 at Cliffs home, bringing their complete gear along and try to tweak the axe to their reference amps and cabs - together with Cliff.

I like it... add to wish list... :lol:

 

[Deltones]

For comparison purpose guys, is this what you get with your Strat if you have a Bassman block (all default values) and a 4x10 Bassman cab block (Mic - None). It's a 25sec clip, Bridge pickup first, then Neck pickup.

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10059765

Thanks.