Axe-Fx Accuracy Issues

[electronpirate]

Re: Part II: Things learned comparing AXE-FX to Bogner Blue

Yeehaw.

Posted about 4 pages ago, and it's been a mess since then. Fun!

Regardless of the emotional responses, this is still an incredibly interesting thread. Even tho we have discussed LF to match the speaker, I cannot recall whether we actually have that listed in the WIKI. Might clear up quite a bit for those who hear something 'not quite right'. Just a thought.

I won't respond specifically to anything, as we should get back to the original thread. Those with problems with my posts should PM me and we'll hash it out there or with a quick phone call.

Which stock speaker is everyone using? And anyone know what the LF numbers are for that cab to 'balance' that out?

Ron

 

[mortega76]

Re: Part II: Things learned comparing AXE-FX to Bogner Blue

I wasn't being a smarta*s..just trying to diffuse a little of the emotions!!

I didn't interpret it in that manner, but thanks!

Wow. :roll: :lol: What happened!!!

I last looked at this thread when it was two pages long and really interesting, especially as I have never actually owned a Bogner to have a good comparison (but dig the Bognor tones) and I came back expecting to find even more cool blue channel settings/discussion and...well, lets face it, tangent really doesn't begin to cover it...come on, back to the Bognor blue channel or start a new thread!?

Technically this thread didn't really go off on a "tangent," more of a "parallel"... all that was discussed was the similarities to the OP's experience with A/B'ing his Bogner to the Axe-fx... I gave my similar experience with the the 5150 and Axe-fx...

There is nothing wrong with a little discussion about any experiences any of us have with our Axe-fx's... if need be just add all these post to this thread.

Thanks again...

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Re: Part II: Things learned comparing AXE-FX to Bogner Blue

Technically this thread didn't really go off on a "tangent,"

"Tangent" would imply a connection with the original. You took it off at a skew angle. Continue in this separated thread if you like, but leave this stuff out of the other one.

There is nothing wrong with a little discussion about any experiences any of us have with our Axe-fx's.

If all you were engaging in were "a little discussion," you might have a point....

 

[mortega76]

Re: Part II: Things learned comparing AXE-FX to Bogner Blue

Technically this thread didn't really go off on a "tangent,"

"Tangent" would imply a connection with the original. You took it off at a skew angle. Continue in this separated thread if you like, but leave this stuff out of the other one.

There is nothing wrong with a little discussion about any experiences any of us have with our Axe-fx's.

If all you were engaging in were "a little discussion," you might have a point....

I hope you have a wonderful new years too!

 

[Casper]

Should we take Cliff's tip about the advanced parameter resonance frequency and put it in the wiki or something?
I think the idea is to experiment matching the power sims resonance frequency to that of the actual (real) speakers you are using. This seems like a good idea.

 

[Doug]

I don't mean to stoke the fire (I'm new here), but I think it's a worthy topic to discuss how easy (or difficult) it is to nail down amp tones. I've had the Standard for about a week now, and I'm loving the presets. I'm sure after about a month or so I'll want to explore building tones on my own, and it's good to hear other users experiences in A/B'ing with actual amps. For right or wrong, when I bought the Standard I assumed that it would be fairly easy to nail actual amp tones right out of the box. From what I've read so far, it might be quite a bit more difficult than what I thought.

I'm not slagging the Axe Fx or Cliff, I do think this is an amazing piece of equipment - I'm extremely happy with my purchase, and it's completely worth the $1,500. On the other hand, people who are passionate about their tones and take the time to do actual A/B's against the Axe shouldn't be dismissed easily. We're all guitar players here, and I believe threads like this are valuable in setting expectations of owners and potential owners.

 

[Dinkledorf]

Re: Part II: Things learned comparing AXE-FX to Bogner Blue

Ask. Receive. Learn. Teach.

IMHO, that video... ugg. The tone there blows; if you want Tele tone you can do better than that by far. Yikes. Try my preset...

Bassman preset below. If you have Red Wire - here's my cab mix to plug into MixIR, if not then use stock cab:

Bassman 410 Ref Mix4
BassmanP10Qs-SM57-CapEdgeOffAxis-2in.wav,0.85
BassmanP10Qs-TC30-CapEdge-0in.wav,0.05
BassmanP10Qs-TC30-Back-12in.wav,0.05
BassmanP10Qs-TC30-RoomL.wav,0.025
BassmanP10Qs-TC30-RoomR.wav,0.025

While its great that you offer up an alternative Scott, saying that the "tone there blows" seems a tad harsh indeed. If that is the tone the dude wants and thinks is the cat's meow, then that's what it is. I am not personally preferential to it myself either but I can certainly appreciate the fact that he likes it. Who are we to judge after all?

Jay speaks of having better ears earlier as well. Well... so what? Good ears certainly doesn't mean good taste does it? I have shit ears (birth defect) and I have never had complaints about my tone. You don't need good ears to compare stuff, its all relative, my life is proof of that.

I got bummed by this thread just like a few folks did, not because of the subject matter but of the way that the OP is being treated (by Mods and Admins no less) for what I believe to be a perfectly legitimate case. Looks more like TGP than Fractal. You guys are way better than this.

Mo, give the shit up and use some EQ's or tube power amps or whatever works and spare yourself a lot of wasted time. As Cliff says, besides that one parm, the rest is there in his opinion and frankly his opinion is what matters here because he is not likely to start chasing what he believes to be ghosts in his code. There is simply nothing more to be gained (no pun intended) here.

For the record, I use the AFX daily and I cannot image life without it, I love what it gives me and the possibilities it represents. It truly does hold a lifetime's worth of possibilities and exploration.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

when I bought the Standard I assumed that it would be fairly easy to nail actual amp tones right out of the box.

I've never had any difficulty doing that, nor have many other users. The ones who do have difficulty tend IMO to be a bit more vocal.

On the other hand, people who are passionate about their tones and take the time to do actual A/B's against the Axe shouldn't be dismissed easily.

Having done that successfully several times myself, I can say that it need not be a difficult process. It depends, as do all things musical, on the skill and understanding of the user as much as on the tool.

I believe threads like this are valuable in setting expectations of owners and potential owners.

I suggest you acquire your own experience and come to your own conclusions. You might just be pleasantly surprised....

 

[Doug]

]I believe threads like this are valuable in setting expectations of owners and potential owners.

I suggest you acquire your own experience and come to your own conclusions. You might just be pleasantly surprised....

No doubt, I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Re: Part II: Things learned comparing AXE-FX to Bogner Blue

Jay speaks of having better ears earlier as well.

Perhaps you should read the assertion to which I was replying. I wasn't bragging, I was pointing out a fact to someone who asserted that I am incapable of hearing something that he hears.

Good ears certainly doesn't mean good taste does it?

the phrase "good ears" means the ability to discriminate. Many people who have hearing loss still retain the ability to discriminate. I have a proven ability to discriminate among sounds and to identify the causes of the differences. That's a damn good thing, because my livelihood depends on that ability.

I got bummed by this thread just like a few folks did, not because of the subject matter but of the way that the OP is being treated

He's not the "OP," he's a thread hijacker whose hijack has now been moved to a (possibly soon-to-be-locked) thread of its own. There's a difference.

 

[Scott Peterson]

Re: Part II: Things learned comparing AXE-FX to Bogner Blue

Ask. Receive. Learn. Teach.

IMHO, that video... ugg. The tone there blows; if you want Tele tone you can do better than that by far. Yikes. Try my preset...

Bassman preset below. If you have Red Wire - here's my cab mix to plug into MixIR, if not then use stock cab:

Bassman 410 Ref Mix4
BassmanP10Qs-SM57-CapEdgeOffAxis-2in.wav,0.85
BassmanP10Qs-TC30-CapEdge-0in.wav,0.05
BassmanP10Qs-TC30-Back-12in.wav,0.05
BassmanP10Qs-TC30-RoomL.wav,0.025
BassmanP10Qs-TC30-RoomR.wav,0.025

While its great that you offer up an alternative Scott, saying that the "tone there blows" seems a tad harsh indeed. If that is the tone the dude wants and thinks is the cat's meow, then that's what it is. I am not personally preferential to it myself either but I can certainly appreciate the fact that he likes it. Who are we to judge after all?

Jay speaks of having better ears earlier as well. Well... so what? Good ears certainly doesn't mean good taste does it? I have shit ears (birth defect) and I have never had complaints about my tone. You don't need good ears to compare stuff, its all relative, my life is proof of that.

I got bummed by this thread just like a few folks did, not because of the subject matter but of the way that the OP is being treated (by Mods and Admins no less) for what I believe to be a perfectly legitimate case. Looks more like TGP than Fractal. You guys are way better than this.

Mo, give the shit up and use some EQ's or tube power amps or whatever works and spare yourself a lot of wasted time. As Cliff says, besides that one parm, the rest is there in his opinion and frankly his opinion is what matters here because he is not likely to start chasing what he believes to be ghosts in his code. There is simply nothing more to be gained (no pun intended) here.

For the record, I use the AFX daily and I cannot image life without it, I love what it gives me and the possibilities it represents. It truly does hold a lifetime's worth of possibilities and exploration.

I'm not talking 'better ears'. I was stating my personal opinion of that tone as some 'standard'. It sounded like poop to me. YMMV. You don't need to agree with me.

I booted up my computer, I downloaded and saved off my preset, I got my personal IR mix and shared it for a Bassman tone. Don't wave me off because I think something sounds crappy. I am trying to help. I'm not 'teaming up' with anyone to challenge anyone else's hearing or taste. If that video represents your uber Bassman tone, then it should not be hard to match it, but frankly it's not how a good Bassman tone would sound to me. My own preset sounds much more organic and warm and how a Bassman SHOULD sound to ME. You might 100% disagree. But I made the effort to share and gave my opinion of that video's representative tone after sharing and trying to help.

If I can't express my opinion of something - he posted a video to represent his ideal tone - then sorry, I don't care what forum you are on, I want no part. I am fully capable of being disagreed with. I can handle it. But I made the effort to help out. I don't see anyone else doing that. I see, "Is so!" "Is not!" "Is so!" "Is not!"

And I never said 'better ears' so I'd appreciate it if you want to come at me, at least keep straight who said what. If the cat tries my preset and says, 'sorry, it blows chunks' then I've no problem with that. I don't dish what I can't take. If I need to walk on eggshells to save every snowflakes' personal feelings from being hurt at all, then why the heck would I even participate on a board at all? Sorry, I do NOT like the tone in that video. It's thin, buzzy and muffled. IMHO, YMMV.

I call a spade a spade. I'm not afraid of being wrong. I'm not afraid of being right either. Is that your idea of a great Bassman tone? Honestly?

 

[mortega76]

Hey there dinkledorf... Don't take anything they say to heart... They mean well. These guys are just big teddy bears. They're actually the most helpful bunch on this forum... Especially Scott...

One of my favorite shows on TV is House so I just gotta say that I love me some Jay Mitchell...

 

[joegold]

My 2 cents.

Just because the tone stacks and other aspects of the amp modelling are claimed to be exact replicas of the modelled amps does not mean that there will be 100% 1-to-1 mapping of knob positions on the Axe with knob positions on the original amps.
I agree that it'd be nice if there was more 1-to-1 mapping of the knobs.
But try to not get in a snit about it when there isn't.
As Cliff has stated, he often chooses to use different tapers for the virtual knobs on the Axe compared to the tapers on the original pots.

Some of the Axe's amp sims are more accurate and more realistic than the others.
Maybe the 5150 and the Bogner are less accurate than some of the others.
Maybe they're in the ballpark but just need some extra tweaking and EQ.
Maybe those amps have certain circuits in them that were engaged when Mortega was doing his A/B'ing that Cliff chose not to model in the Axe. Who knows?
I know from direct experience that the Mesa Mark Series sims are very very close to the originals.
But Cliff didn't model every possible tone that these amps are capable of.
He left out the Pull Shift, the Tweed Power, the 5-band GEQ, etc., etc., etc.
But there are plenty of other tools in the Axe that can come very close to replicating what these circuits do on the original amps.

If Mortega absolutely has to have the sound he heard that day from his friend's 5150, and he can't learn to coax something similar out of the Axe, then he should just go buy a 5150 already.

And was Cliff mistaken when he wrote about the LF Resonance parameter, really meaning the Speaker Resonant Frequency parameter?

 

[Smilzo]

I would like to help Cliff focusing on difference I "heard".
I A/B some device (older firmware). To eliminate as many variable as possible, I put the Axefx into head return or poweramp. Poweramp emulation off. Knob to taste. The JMP1 and Triaxis were nailed, the JCM800 is also similar, a modded JTM was far from similar. I do know each real amp have different tone.

Tweaking preamp emulation, direct into real counterpart poweramp/cabs, the sound must be almost the same, IMHO. If it's not the case, than I suspect there will be many causes and many solutions: tweak parameters, add blocks, tweak outside device, firmware doable, not doable .

What about if Cliff give us a short dry clip, to reamp, and we record our real amp (preamp secion only)? 1) We can put them on the web, and help each other to match the tone in our axefx. 2) If we fail, then Cliff himself could give a try, and 3) if he suspect there are some main reason (voltage, caps ages, leakage...) the he have a datebase of real sounds.

Preamp emulation only, please, no poweramp.

Hope this help.

 

[Deltones]

Re: Part II: Things learned comparing AXE-FX to Bogner Blue

Regarding the Bassman patch Scott posted.

While its great that you offer up an alternative Scott, saying that the "tone there blows" seems a tad harsh indeed. If that is the tone the dude wants and thinks is the cat's meow, then that's what it is. I am not personally preferential to it myself either but I can certainly appreciate the fact that he likes it. Who are we to judge after all?

Is that your idea of a great Bassman tone? Honestly?

Actually, it's not that the tone blows or that it's my idea of a great Bassman tone. But the clip I posted (youtube sound quality notwithstanding) still represents what a Tweed sounds like with the settings you see in the clip. That was the main focus i.e create a Bassman patch that ressembled the clip with only the basic parameters and stock cab offered. Here's another clip with Jim Weider playing his Tele on a 57 Bassman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU2uNjxvBcs

Yes, he plays with an Echoplex in that clip, and it does color the sound, but you can hear the basic character of the amp you hear in the clip I posted previously.

I downloaded and tried Scott's Bassman patch, but used the stock 4x10 Bass cab instead. No disrespect, but I don't think anybody would recognize that patch as any Fender Bassman that ever existed, let alone the clip I posted. This might be due to the fact that Scott created his patch with his Redwirez mix. They do affect the patch creation immensely. But I wanted to focus on what's available stock. And stock, I couldn't recreate the clip with the basic parameters. That was the point I was trying to make. It's entirely possible that I'm the worst Axe-Fx patch maker that ever lived though and should restrict myself to turnips gardening. But I doubt it, I'm not a fan of turnips :mrgreen:

 

[mortega76]

Something just occurred to me... in most of these amp fests we were tuned muuuuch lower than standard tuning (in my case Dropped Bb)... and I see that Cliff tunes to standard E. Would it be possible that Cliff and most other folks who argue with my notion that the "power amp modeling may not be up to par" because they never venture out into the frequency range that some of us higher gain folks are playing in?

 

[Richard_G]

I'm tempted to say "Let it go, Mo. Just buy the tube amp you apparently can't duplicate and be done with it".

 

[mortega76]

I'm tempted to say "Let it go, Mo. Just buy the tube amp you apparently can't duplicate and be done with it".

:lol: You're probably right but as stubborn as I am to make it work, I just can't!

 

[Deltones]

Something just occurred to me... in most of these amp fests we were tuned muuuuch lower than standard tuning (in my case Dropped Bb)... and I see that Cliff tunes to standard E. Would it be possible that Cliff and most other folks who argue with my notion that the "power amp modeling may not be up to par" because they never venture out into the frequency range that some of us higher gain folks are playing in?

Pretty interesting that you say that because when I experimented with the high gain models, the only times I felt I was unto something sonically was when I downtuned as a test. I'm a standard tuning player 99.9% of the times and I didn't seem to get acceptable results with standard tuning. But on this, I will say that it's a 100% due to my lack of knowledge of high gainers. The JCM800 model is usually as far as I go.

 

[JWDubois]

This is an interesting subject. Lurking the Axe forum for a couple of years, and owning one for several months now, I've seen a pattern. Either the Axe works for you pretty much right out of the box, or it doesn't work for you at all. The ratio seems to be >90% favorable if you go by the "just got my Axe and it sounds great" posts. I count myself fortunate to be in the "great sound with no eq necessary" camp. I think this basically means I have a really good set of speakers and I'm not trying to go too loud.

The majority of the owners with issues seem to be the "must match the amp in the room" types. There's nothing wrong with that expectation, but I suspect it all boils down to what you are playing it through and how loud you are trying to go. To get what the OP wants you need a really powerful and transparent FRFR, or you end up using a tube power amp and cab, which defeats the purpose of the Axe IMO.

My conclusion is that the OP's amplification method, whatever it is, is just not up to the job of giving him what he needs at the volume he wants. If it was, he wouldn't need massive eq other than to deal with FM effects at high volume.

JWW