Axe-Fx Accuracy Issues

[Sixstring]

Wow... just Wow, this thread was quite the read :shock: .

 

[Jay Mitchell]

For comparison purpose guys, is this what you get with your Strat if you have a Bassman block (all default values) and a 4x10 Bassman cab block (Mic - None).

Is there a problem with this? Sounds a lot like a tweed Bassman to me. Do you have an example of the real deal (not a reissue) handy for a direct comparison?

 

[dk_ace]

For comparison purpose guys, is this what you get with your Strat if you have a Bassman block (all default values) and a 4x10 Bassman cab block (Mic - None).

Is there a problem with this? Sounds a lot like a tweed Bassman to me. Do you have an example of the real deal (not a reissue) handy for a direct comparison?

I can't hear his clips from here, but I can say that I've had no problem getting the bassman model to sound like a tweed bassman. Looking at Deltones earlier comment, it looks like he's misunderstanding how the control tapers work.

The control tapers in the Axe-FX are linear, they are often not linear in the real world amps. Because of this, you have to adjust them using your ears and not your eyes.

Deltones, Cliff has explained many times now why this is the way it is, and it makes good sense. You can't just copy settings from someones physical amp into the Axe-FX to get the same sound. It doesn't work that way.

D

 

[Deltones]

Deltones, Cliff has explained many times now why this is the way it is, and it makes good sense. You can't just copy settings from someones physical amp into the Axe-FX to get the same sound. It doesn't work that way.

D

Naaa man, this time, it has nothing to do with copying physical amps (answering Jay at the same time). I got a PM a few days ago from Cliff about the possibility of my Ultra being defective. I don't think it is and just wanted to confirm with other users that what they hear in the clip with the 2 blocks at default values are really what they hear with their own Strat on their side. For once, there is nothing more to my post :mrgreen:

 

[speedloader]

I'm not sure if you've read the other thread where I stated that we A/B'd the Axe-fx against a 5150 and a ENGL SE and we could not get the low to mid range "meat" or "growl" when using the standard (drive, BMH, presence and MV) without adding some massive GEQ... .

Just a suggestion .. move the energyball's tonestack (german) location to 500hz or so, it opens the midrange fairly well .. the powerball is a different beast than the SE, it has two interacting mid potentiometers (open/focus) on the lead channels and moving the tonestack down can compensate for the lack of low-mid pot.

 

[HailHalford]

Thanks for chiming in dk_ace... Without adjusting the level parameter... A master setting of 2-3 is super low with my power amp set to max (which is how I normally set it up) and with the axe-fx output level to max... It doesn't get anywhere close to loud until I crank the level to +12-13 on the level control... Then the sound (without adjusting any other setting) sounds very thin with no low to mid range growl until I crank up the master...

This seems very wrong to me. These settings should push anything you've plugged the Axe into well past the redline. Are you running speaker cable from the AxeFX to your power amp or something?!? The AxeFX output is very hot; try setting your output to 12:00 and work your gain staging from there.

 

[mortega76]

Just got back from my buddy Paul's house and Matt showed up as well...

Paul has been struggling to get his newly acquired QSC RMX 2450 to sound good in stereo into his two 400 watt Mills Acoustics cabs...

I took my Peavey PV1500 power amp and we decided to first run the two power amps in bridged mode my Peavey was running at 1000 watts @ 8ohm and his QSC RMX 2450 was running at 1500 watts @ 8ohm... on his he had to use banana clips to run in bridged mode. Well, on first strum I had to move away from the directon of the cab because it was LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We turned it down and it sounded pretty good on first listen. Forgot to mention that we had to put the RMX at around 2/3's full to equal the PV, which makes sense.

After a few minutes of running it this we we decided to see how it compared to the power section of the Peavey 5150. It was nowhere near as loud as the two bridged power amps and it actually was a bit more "tame" overall especially in the high end.

Next we decided to run the QSC RMX at the normal 500 watts @ 8ohm in stereo and it didn't liven up until we nearly cranked the the Axe-fx output on full along with the power amp outputs... and the RMX was lighting up red like a christmas tree.

We came back to the dual bridged power amps and there was no question that it sounded awesome...

Short and sweet answer... I need way more power specifically for the headroom and "girth"... 500 watts is not enough.

We tried a couple of different amp sims... the PVH 5105 sounded better than the real thing with no EQ. The Das Metall all settings to default except the drive was feed-backing like crazy but it sounded awesome... the Recto new with all settings defaulted except for the Master Volume at 8.0 sounded crazy good... I don't know where you guys get that it sounds muddy... it sounded thin and sterile with the MV at 3.0 through the Mills Cabs. The only two "disappointments" of the bunch that we tried were the Bogner Uber which was dark and messy with the default settings... we tried to just boost the presence a bit but it sounded just ice-picky on the high end. And the Marsha HBE was just too mid range honky... It sounded better than it did on my setup but still no where near as br00talz as some of you guys say it is...

So... in conclusion... for us, we need 3 times (minimum) the rated power of the cabs that we are using just to get the headroom for the Axe-fx to really shine. Paul was ready to return both the Axe-fx and the power amp... but now he's really liking the setup with the headroom of the 1000-1500 watts of power.

We still want to hear what the Fryette 2/90/2 can do but it sounds like we just need massive power amps. Matt just purchased a Carvin DCM1540L and he's going to bridge it at 1500 watts @ 8ohm. This might be the route two go and get two of these because they are only 15 lbs a piece.

Now I'm just waiting to get a call from FAS for my Axe-fx... it's been 4 days... do they normally take this long?

P.S. All of this was done at Paul's house... I wonder how this would all hold up against other high end tube amps... in our tests, it killed the 5150.

P.S.S. Are there any stereo SS power amps that push at 4, 8 and 16 ohm?

 

[gittarzann]

Mo


If you get a chance to pick up a Mesa Strategy style amp, give it a try.

I got one for around 500 shipped and it is a monster of a power amp...as long as size doesn't scare you. I think it is 4 spaces.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Re: Part II: Things learned comparing AXE-FX to Bogner Blue

I'm hoping that we will get to a point where we could (just as we did on just about every tube amp in the amp fest) adjust the drive, low, mid, high, master volume and presence (just opened up Axe-edit and realized that these are the only knobs under "basic") and get that tone that just makes you want to involuntarily say out loud... wow. Without having to adjust the low cut, high cut, Xformer LF/HF, or spend the amount of years that we both have on trying to achieving our ultimate tone with the Axe-fx with only the amp sim into a (known good) SS amp and through a real cab with some (known good) speakers.

I should be able to connect a great sounding amp like a 5150 to a cab... adjust the knobs and get a great tone... then I should be able to (through the same speaker cab) connect my Axe-fx/SS-amp and go to the PVH 5105 amp sim and dial in using the same (virtual) knobs (including cranking the master volume) and get a similar sounding and feeling tone... no?

I dunno....it's been years that I have messed with anything then the basic settings when doing a new patch...

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Re: Part II: Things learned comparing AXE-FX to Bogner Blue

I dunno....it's been years that I have messed with anything then the basic settings when doing a new patch...

But Ed, you're just one 'em "clean, low gain players," and you obviously can't hear all the subtleties of teh brootalz tonality that Mo's finely-tuned ears can. :lol:

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Re: Part II: Things learned comparing AXE-FX to Bogner Blue

[quote="Ed DeGenaro":gd0nl1qk]I dunno....it's been years that I have messed with anything then the basic settings when doing a new patch...

But Ed, you're just one 'em "clean, low gain players," and you obviously can't hear all the subtleties of teh brootalz tonality that Mo's finely-tuned ears can. :lol:[/quote:gd0nl1qk]
Funny on so many levels!
Especially since being the sole Rock guy teaching at a college with a whole lotta Jazzholes.

 

[s0c9]

....struggling to get his newly acquired QSC RMX 2450 to sound good in stereo into his two 400 watt Mills Acoustics cabs...

While I'm sure it's not exactly what you meant to say, I can assure the 2450's are good clean amps, and if Paul was struggling to get the sound good thru the Mills cabs, it was NOT the faulty of the RMX.

..QSC RMX 2450 was running at 1500 watts @ 8ohm... on his he had to use banana clips to run in bridged mode.

Most QSC amps (and most other brands that I'm aware of) require banana plugs to run in bridge mode. That is because you are "bridging" two separate mono amps. Left and right channels are completely separate amps.

... Forgot to mention that we had to put the RMX at around 2/3's full to equal the PV, which makes sense.

This is irrelevant, makes no sense whatsoever, and does not equate output levels between the two amp in any way, shape or form. The dial on the front of the RMX is NOT a volume control!! It's an INPUT attenuator.. meaning, turning it all the way open puts the RMX channel (remember there are TWO separate amps in the box) at its most sensitive, and will need less signal level to achieve rated power output. Turn it most of the way down, and more input signal level is required to drive the amp to rated power. Period. In bridged mode, the same applies, only Chan1 attenuator is active. Chan 2 does nothing. IOW - you can get 1500w power from the amp whether the input level is set at 10 or 34. Depends on how much signal you give it. You were probably not aware of that.
To correctly set the amp up for use with the Mills (gain stage it), you should disconnect the banana plug. i.e. - no speakers attached. This IS safe to do with an SS amp. Completely turn down the output from the AXE, then turn up the input on RMX chan 1 to 34 (full). Play guitar fairly hard and slowly turn up the Axe output level until the red light on the amp start to show (clip) - kinda like dialing in the input level on the Axe. Now back the amp level down to 32. Make note of the settings on Axe and amp. You should now be set up properly. You will NOT get any more "volume" out of the RMX with it set up differently as it is now set for max headroom. (Sorry Max..!! couldn't resist).
It's no wonder you had red lights all over the place. And were you using a single Mills cab or both, and how were they connected? This is really fundamental stuff.

P.S.S. Are there any stereo SS power amps that push at 4, 8 and 16 ohm?

most professional PA style amps (QSC, Crown, Yamaha, etc.) will push at 2, 4 and 8 Ohms only, and 2-ohm is usually in bridge mode only.

Now that all that is said, I hope you are wearing some kind of hearing protection while doing this stuff. If not you will be TONE DEAF by the time you are 23!~
If you need to run ANY cab with 1500w, you are doing something wrong. Amplifying sound at those levels is what PA's are for, not guitar cabs, even if you are playing "death metal screamo stuff". Lower stage volumes will protect your hearing (long term) and actually let you HEAR what else is happening on stage. Like hearing your vocals, the bass, etc.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

most professional PA style amps (QSC, Crown, Yamaha, etc.) will push at 2, 4 and 8 Ohms only, and 2-ohm is usually in bridge mode only.

There's one error here: the minimum safe impedance for an amp to drive in bridged mode is always twice the minimum for each channel. An amp that is rated for 2-ohm-per channel loads in stereo is only good to drive a 4-ohm load in bridge mode.

There are so many serious misconceptions in Mo's descriptions of his experimentation and the different setups he's tried that it is possible neither to correct them all in an online forum nor to know what his actual problem(s) might be. The only possible solution for him - if one even exists - is for someone who is actually knowledgable about both the Axe-Fx and professional audio amplification to get him set up in person.

 

[mortega76]

....struggling to get his newly acquired QSC RMX 2450 to sound good in stereo into his two 400 watt Mills Acoustics cabs...

While I'm sure it's not exactly what you meant to say, I can assure the 2450's are good clean amps, and if Paul was struggling to get the sound good thru the Mills cabs, it was NOT the faulty of the RMX.

Thanks for chiming in s0c9... What was meant was that it wasn't until we almost dime the Axe-fx's output and dimed the output of the RMX (and Peavey PV1500) did we get the low to mid range growl that we were getting with the 5150. They just sounded thin and sterile until you cranked them in stereo mode non-bridged... and on top of that they were clipping like crazy...

..QSC RMX 2450 was running at 1500 watts @ 8ohm... on his he had to use banana clips to run in bridged mode.

Most QSC amps (and most other brands that I'm aware of) require banana plugs to run in bridge mode. That is because you are "bridging" two separate mono amps. Left and right channels are completely separate amps.

Well... my first power amp (QSC GX5) didn't have a bridged mode so the Peavey PV1500 is my first power amp with a bridged mode option... this power amp has a separate speakon bridged mode output which I much preferred over the banana plugs on the RMX. Also, I am aware than the second input becomes inoperable in bridged mode.

... Forgot to mention that we had to put the RMX at around 2/3's full to equal the PV, which makes sense.

This is irrelevant, makes no sense whatsoever, and does not equate output levels between the two amp in any way, shape or form. The dial on the front of the RMX is NOT a volume control!! It's an INPUT attenuator.. meaning, turning it all the way open puts the RMX channel (remember there are TWO separate amps in the box) at its most sensitive, and will need less signal level to achieve rated power output. Turn it most of the way down, and more input signal level is required to drive the amp to rated power. Period. In bridged mode, the same applies, only Chan1 attenuator is active. Chan 2 does nothing. IOW - you can get 1500w power from the amp whether the input level is set at 10 or 34. Depends on how much signal you give it. You were probably not aware of that.
To correctly set the amp up for use with the Mills (gain stage it), you should disconnect the banana plug. i.e. - no speakers attached. This IS safe to do with an SS amp. Completely turn down the output from the AXE, then turn up the input on RMX chan 1 to 34 (full). Play guitar fairly hard and slowly turn up the Axe output level until the red light on the amp start to show (clip) - kinda like dialing in the input level on the Axe. Now back the amp level down to 32. Make note of the settings on Axe and amp. You should now be set up properly. You will NOT get any more "volume" out of the RMX with it set up differently as it is now set for max headroom. (Sorry Max..!! couldn't resist).
It's no wonder you had red lights all over the place. And were you using a single Mills cab or both, and how were they connected? This is really fundamental stuff.

Thanks for the info on attenuation... The only reason I mentioned that we had to put the RMX at 2/3's output was because if you split the output (mathematically) into thirds 1/3 would give you 500 watts (or 2/3rds attenuation, as you put it), 2/3rd's would give you 1000 watts (or 1/3 attenuation) and of course full would give you 1500 watts (or no attenuation)... at full bridged power the RMX was waaaaaay louded than the Peavey so we set it (by ear) to level out the two power amps and it turns out it was 2/3rds (to use your words) attenuation. I am also aware that with SS power amps you can disconnect and connect at will... I just don't know how these tube guys can live with having to power their amps on/off all the time when switching speaker cables. With both power amps (in stereo mode) they were clipping with the power amps dimed and slowing raising the output on the Axe-fx... it started to clip about halfway on the Peavey and about 2/3rd's of the way on the RMX... but as I said, it didn't sound very thick in the low to mid range level at all unitl we were dimed on all three units under stereo mode.

P.S.S. Are there any stereo SS power amps that push at 4, 8 and 16 ohm?

most professional PA style amps (QSC, Crown, Yamaha, etc.) will push at 2, 4 and 8 Ohms only, and 2-ohm is usually in bridge mode only.

Now that all that is said, I hope you are wearing some kind of hearing protection while doing this stuff. If not you will be TONE DEAF by the time you are 23!~
If you need to run ANY cab with 1500w, you are doing something wrong. Amplifying sound at those levels is what PA's are for, not guitar cabs, even if you are playing "death metal screamo stuff". Lower stage volumes will protect your hearing (long term) and actually let you HEAR what else is happening on stage. Like hearing your vocals, the bass, etc.

[/quote]Good thing I'll be 35 this Monday then! But in all seriousness, thank you for your concern and yes I do try to protect my hearing as much as possible... it is only at the amp fests where we usually push these amps to their limits to see how they compare to each other... at practice we always make sure to level everything out so as to hear everyone properly... we do the same at shows and sometimes I can't even hear myself through my own cab let alone through the monitors, so it's a good thing we practice with a metronome and each of us knows our parts so we don't care if we can necessarily hear ourselves or each other during the shows because let's face it... most of these FOH guys at the local spots don't give a rats a$$ if the guys can hear themselves on stage or not... let alone how the FOH mix sounds. Most places here in SA have sh*tty sound systems. Period.

 

[s0c9]

There's one error here: the minimum safe impedance for an amp to drive in bridged mode is always twice the minimum for each channel. An amp that is rated for 2-ohm-per channel loads in stereo is only good to drive a 4-ohm load in bridge mode.

You are much more an expert than I in this area and totally correct. Since you pointed it out, I am aware of this, but in my haste to educate in general terms, I neglected to clarify that point. Thanks.

 

[s0c9]

The only reason I mentioned that we had to put the RMX at 2/3's output was because if you split the output (mathematically) into thirds 1/3 would give you 500 watts (or 2/3rds attenuation, as you put it), 2/3rd's would give you 1000 watts (or 1/3 attenuation) and of course full would give you 1500 watts (or no attenuation)...

SS power amps don't work that way! The only way output is split in the manner you describe above is if you had 3 cabs connected to the amp and impedance matched. Then each would see approx. 500w. Two cabs would get approx. 750w each. 1 cab would "see" all 1500w - not good for your average 400w 8-Ohm guitar cab.

You need to understand that the RMX2450 can produce full rated power (bridged: 1500w @8-Ohms, 2400w @ 4-Ohms) with the input knob set at any point above "off". The combined impedance of all connected speakers should be no less that 4-Ohms. Producing full output requires the right input signal (voltage) level. Adjusting the dial to 1/3 or 1/2 way may appear to adjust the effective output volume but it really does not. This is pretty fundamental stuff.

If you had one Mills cab connected, the wattage it should see would depend on whether its nominal impedance was 8 or 16-Ohms. Since you mentioned 1500w, I'm assuming it was 8-Ohm. In that case it would get about 1300w. A 16-Ohm cab would get 600-700w - assuming bridged amp. Without taking measurements its hard to say exactly.

PS: Happy 35th on Monday

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Thanks for the info on attenuation... The only reason I mentioned that we had to put the RMX at 2/3's output was because if you split the output (mathematically) into thirds 1/3 would give you 500 watts (or 2/3rds attenuation, as you put it), 2/3rd's would give you 1000 watts (or 1/3 attenuation) and of course full would give you 1500 watts (or no attenuation)...

I've explained to you several times that this is completely wrong, and now s0c9 has had to explain exactly the same thing twice within the space of half a dozen posts in this epic, yet completely unproductive, thread. You aren't paying attention, and I can't help but believe that this is a big part of the reason you can't get what you're looking for. You're trying things that can't possibly get you where you want to be, based on completely backward perceptions of the way things actually operate.

If you won't listen to people who understand these matters and are trying to help you, and you won't do the technical 'shedding you'd have to do to learn to help yourself, you're going to continue to make no progress.

 

[Sixstring]

( why do we need to have global eq's, graphic eq's, parametric eq's, or any other "external" eq just to match up the Axe-fx amp sim to the real amp?)

No stabs or anything else here just an attempt to offer my perspective and possible answers to the OP... I think the best answer to this question is because of all the possible amp and speaker solutions that are available wether it be tube or SS amp or guitar cab and FR speakers. I believe this was done in order to give you tuning options to accommodate all those possibilities.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say I bet if you were to put the Axe-fx's amp sim (disabling the virtual power amp) into the power amp section of the real amp it will probably be a 1:1... tit-for-tat... mirrored "image" of the amp in question.

This question is very plausible, I have not tried it personally but it makes sense.

I wrote in another thread where (I thought the power amp sims may not be up to par and) we couldn't get the PVH 5105 amp sim (10.01) to sound close to the real 5150 amp without some massive GEQ... mainly in lows and especially in the mids... which leads me to believe that some of the higher gain amp sims have something that is not working well to give us the true sound of what a cranked up high gain monster can do. Cliff has stated many times where an amp sim (specifically the Recto New) shouldn't be cranked past 10 to 11 o'clock (3.0 or 4.0)... well, we had the 5150 crank to 3 o'clock (or what would be around 8.0 or 9.0) and it sounded soooo beautifully brutal.

With this I would say maybe your only going get what you got and that's it... the end.

There are some folks (Mark Day) who have set their Global EQ with some crazy settings as a "set it and forget it" to make is sound more like a tube amp using a SS power amp... I would rather have my Global EQ, PEQ, GEQ as an "as needed" effect instead of a "required" effect.

This question reefers to the first and is pretty much self explanatory. My personal experience with SS amp and guitar cab was to add some EQ to get things to sound right.

Also, this notion of "use your ears" (or that that 1:1 does not apply) nullifies every single suggested tone amp setting that is recommended on just about every tube amp forum out there on the web doesn't it?

Considering everyone has their own idea of what a given tone should sound like and that some amps are inherently different even though they are the same model (referring to the old hand wound transformer Plexi Marshals of the day) I would have to say yes.

As I mentioned in the other thread... I don't want to bash the Axe-fx... I want it to be the best selling and best sounding modeler it can possibly be, and if it takes some of us folks to bring our experiences to Cliff's attention then hopefully he will take a look and see if there is something that can possibly be improved with his magical geniusness... (is that a real word?)

This is evident and I believe you but sometimes you can only do so much no matter how hard you try. Even Cliff has his limitations with the given medium, with that said maybe something better will come down the pipe with the next generation Axe FX. In the end it will ether work for you or not and there is no arguing that fact, sorry Mo .